tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post3182054422996701535..comments2024-03-01T21:01:15.174-06:00Comments on Biblical Christianity: Those irresponsible, nutty, sensationalistic, date-setting...DJPhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comBlogger65125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-49821928967867402022010-03-03T07:02:02.978-06:002010-03-03T07:02:02.978-06:00I'm closing this discussion here, so I can mov...I'm closing this discussion here, so I can move it to a new meta. I hope to have the new post up within about 2 hours, max. "Hope to," I said. Not "pledge on my honor that I will."DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-81929188851214211492010-03-03T06:16:17.575-06:002010-03-03T06:16:17.575-06:00Aaron...
The destruction of Jerusalem was the e...Aaron... <br /><br />The destruction of Jerusalem was the end of the Old Covenant. It was as devastating as Revelation portends. <br /><br />The kingdom moving from glory to glory is painful if you are hanging on to a past glory.<br /><br />al sendsAlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02659402617723892967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-48193612076359850972010-03-02T23:56:30.111-06:002010-03-02T23:56:30.111-06:00I've been both genuinely educated and thorough...I've been both genuinely educated and thoroughly entertained by a thread on eschatology. Jesus must really be coming back soon. :)<br /><br />Brad, I'd never even heard of that chili-whatsis term before today. I'm with you brother. Sounds like nothing I'd like, especially this time of year.<br /><br />And Fred, I have it on good authority that Barry Horner isn't much of a blog guy, but he's delighted when his work is a help, so I'll be sure to let him know about the shout out (him being my Dad and all :) ).Rachael Starkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10781158372237369417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-3264104512559888982010-03-02T23:01:41.449-06:002010-03-02T23:01:41.449-06:00"In all fairness, I've never actually hea..."<i>In all fairness, I've never actually heard a dispensationalist scream, "AHHH Danger Will Robinson," but there's a first time for everything.</i>"<br /><br />I've actually been known to use that phrase a time or two...<br /><br /><i>~Squirrel</i>The Squirrelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14082708506676251152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-14182751643316553712010-03-02T22:53:05.989-06:002010-03-02T22:53:05.989-06:00People often make the mistake of studying only Mat...People often make the mistake of studying only Matthew 24 and not comparing them to the corresponding passages in Mark 13 and Luke 21.<br /><br />I remembering going to a debate between Ice and I believe, Demar. Demar's point was that Revelation was filled with generic "judgement coming" hyperbole frequently found in the Old Testament. I'm always left with the impression that preterists see God as some gross over-exxagerator since the destruction of Jerusalem hardly seems so bad compared to the language in Revelation. Then I think, what do these people think about hell? Also hyperbole?<br /><br />But then again I wasn't there in AD70.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15285043747501470199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-2363041180504429842010-03-02T22:50:40.899-06:002010-03-02T22:50:40.899-06:00James (and eventually Fred),
Dan told Brad that h...James (and eventually Fred),<br /><br />Dan told Brad that he cannot have an OT prophet speaking in a way that his immediate hearers could not understand, so I say the same to you…<br /><br />When Jesus calls his present day Pharisees and scribes to task for killing present and future prophets he declares that all of the blood of the righteous will fall on their heads (Matthew 23:31ff) He cuts the monologue off with “Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.” Vs 36. Should “this generation” be taken as something other than the generation of Jesus’ day?<br /><br />It is in this context that Jesus speaks the next time he uses this phrase in Matthew 24. So the people who heard this would have had to make some kinda leap to get from eight woes on the Pharisees who were in the Temple that afternoon to some distant generation that would not see the end of the Temple. Even though this was question Jesus was asked (24:1-3)<br /><br />For Fred… I really don’t get Don Greens “real” exegesis of this particular passage in Matthew 23. Here is what he said, <i><b>“The individuals addressed by “this generation” in Matthew 23:34-36 did not kill Abel nor Zechariah, yet Jesus attributes the murder to them. Nelson writes: “The contemporaries of Christ did not murder Zechariah son of Berechiah (23:35-36), and thus “this generation” in 23:36 extends beyond Jesus’ contemporaries to include murderers back to the time of Abel and forward to those who would kill and crucify and persecute disciples until Jesus returns.”</b></i> Do you agree with Green and Nelson here? That “this generation… extends beyond Jesus contemporaries?”(page 30) <br /><br />Clearly, when Jesus was crucified at the lawless hands of this generation of Jews they killed the last Prophet who would come to Israel. They killed the Son of God and every prophet’s death up to that point had been a shadow of what was to come. In response to this Prophet’s death “this generation” would be full of their Father’s sins. How anyone could read that another way is beyond me…<br /><br />al sendsAlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02659402617723892967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-38292560894466273242010-03-02T21:51:23.541-06:002010-03-02T21:51:23.541-06:00Wow.
From "progical" to "elecht&qu...Wow.<br /><br />From "progical" to "elecht" in one day.<br /><br />Only on BibChr.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-49884427323910359042010-03-02T21:38:48.327-06:002010-03-02T21:38:48.327-06:00James,
I'll have to check out what supersessi...James,<br /><br />I'll have to check out what supersessionism means. I don't think I'm that though, or I would probably know. And actually, I'm cool with being the lowest common denominator. I'm a Baptist, after all. Besides, you'd be suprised how hard I have to work to be sub-par at stuff.<br /><br />Dan,<br /><br />You are welcome. :) Like I said, I don't know how much different I would be than a "post-trib" premil rapture guy. I'll tell you what I believe right now for sure.<br /><br />1. Jesus is coming back!<br />2. I will meet Him in the air.<br />3. He will establish a literal thousand year reign.<br />4. Physical descendants of Israel will experience a revival. However, I'm sort of convinced that this will still be somewhat mysterious as <i>we</i> don't know who they are. <br />5. I have 7 years left in Daniel hanging out there. So, I understand the Tribulation with a capital "T".<br />6. Though this may seem odd to you considering number four, I believe that Israel and the Church are intimately intwined and will share the same blessing. That is, Christ and His glory and all things. That is, I do not see a distinction other than ethnicity, and a promise for revival. But then, I believe that some from every tribe will be saved as well.<br />7. I am very much looking forward to this millenial reign, as I believe it will be far more awesome than we think.<br /><br />Believe it or not, my word verification is "elecht".Brad Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00197301845256854051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-49908196116962324612010-03-02T20:37:36.247-06:002010-03-02T20:37:36.247-06:00What nothing about us post-millenialists? I sort ...What nothing about us post-millenialists? I sort of feel left out. Although I would compare Harold Camping to John Hagee both hold to extreme non-biblical views and shouldn't be used as the yardstick to measure the different positions by.P.D. Nelsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17885909266458802577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-8263540656251059532010-03-02T19:12:43.529-06:002010-03-02T19:12:43.529-06:00Brad, (A) thanks for making me laugh until I had a...Brad, (A) thanks for making me laugh until I had a coughing fit. Best laugh of the day.<br /><br />(B) I'd have to know more about your position to know what I am and am not comfortable with. It all depends. The simplest way I know how to say it (and Gov98 got pretty darned close here) is: if you deal with OT prophecy in a way that <i>none</i> of the writers <i>or</i> hearers could <i>possibly</i> have understood, you lose me in a huge way.<br /><br />Cherish any thought that the church replaces Israel, that the OT prophecies will have no ethnic fulfillment — that we inherit spiritualized blessings, leaving Israel with literal curses... and you make nonsense of Jesus reproaching the leaders for not understanding prophecy. What He should have said was, "No one can blame you," not "Moses will condemn you."DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-20182593146809349652010-03-02T18:32:14.404-06:002010-03-02T18:32:14.404-06:00Al, only if Fred promises to stick it out until yo...<i>Al, only if Fred promises to stick it out until you're through spinning.</i><br /><br />I promise. But I probably can't interact with any substance until tomorrow sometime. Busy with the fam at the moment.Fred Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16025967176465685306noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-76822745770988804382010-03-02T18:32:14.405-06:002010-03-02T18:32:14.405-06:00Fred, Fred, tag me, ooo, ooo, tag me.
Al, when Je...Fred, Fred, tag me, ooo, ooo, tag me.<br /><br />Al, when Jesus said, "...this generation...", you have about three options.<br /><br />1. Jesus meant the generation he was talking to. So Jesus would come back within about 30 years.<br /><br />2. Jesus meant the generation as a people, the jews. So the jews would exist as a people until he returns. That is true for the preterist and the futurist.<br /><br />3. Jesus meant the generation that witnesses the events. In other words, the signs would not drag out throughout history, but would happen within a short period of time.<br /><br />Your view has to take one possible meaning of "this generation" and then depend on the record keeping of Josephus to help you interpret Matthew. You have to allegorize all of the events actually to make that fit. For example, the destruction of a city in a tiny country is supposed to be the worse thing that has ever happened. Yeah, Jerusalem was never sacked before, the Jews have not been persecuted since, there have never been a war that involved the entire world, much less 2 wars. Your position contains so much credibility, it runs over.<br /><br />You have to then make the 1000 years in Revelation into a general concept of a long time. Because nothing says 2100 years is a long time like saying 1000 years.<br /><br />Back to relying on Josephus, he was hired by Rome to do the history. It would be like Obama having Keith Olbermann do a history of his presidency. What, he is objective. Keith is a stable individual. Sorry, my eyes hurt from rolling.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-89848317113318610872010-03-02T18:21:55.781-06:002010-03-02T18:21:55.781-06:00Brad, historic premill just means you hold to the ...Brad, historic premill just means you hold to the historical millennial position. You are a chiliast. Typically though, those who identify themselves as historical premills tend toward supersessionism. The tribulation may or may not even matter to your view. It could be historical or future or who cares. Your position is the lowest common denominator for those who hold to the biblical position of the millennium. It isn't personal. Everyone needs to start somewhere.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-16223647569620639802010-03-02T17:31:49.451-06:002010-03-02T17:31:49.451-06:00I am a historical premil. for a few reasons. One, ...I am a historical premil. for a few reasons. One, I happen to believe that's what the Bible teaches. Secondly, I like it because it is called "historical." And thirdly, it sounds better than being called a chiliast.<br /><br />In reality, there is hardly any difference in what I understand the Bible to teach and what would be a post-trib premil position.<br /><br />Dan, what would you dislike about that in particular, other than perhaps the timing of the "rapture"?Brad Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00197301845256854051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-48191503781975042712010-03-02T16:04:59.776-06:002010-03-02T16:04:59.776-06:00In all fairness, I've never actually heard a d...In all fairness, I've never actually heard a dispensationalist scream, "AHHH Danger Will Robinson," but there's a first time for everything.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-23165154466598937152010-03-02T15:45:47.708-06:002010-03-02T15:45:47.708-06:00He's not wrong.
(c;He's not wrong.<br /><br />(c;DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-35113190778605422862010-03-02T15:29:37.800-06:002010-03-02T15:29:37.800-06:00Brad -
I'll give a brief sketch.
Covenant T...Brad - <br /><br />I'll give a brief sketch.<br /><br />Covenant Theology which generally holds to an amill or postmill interpretation says that the promises made to Israel were "spiritual" promises. So that when God said in Genesis 17:8 "And I will give to you and to your descendants after you the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be there God." They would say that this promise is fulfilled through the church and therefore the Children of Abraham have no particular claim to that piece of property.<br /><br />A dispensationalist screams "AHHH Danger Will Robinson" at that, because Abraham didn't believe the promise was an allegorical promise of general spiritual benefit to people who may or may not be his actual offspring. He believed that *shock* God meant what he said. Now, if the Bible says "If we confess our sins and he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." We should be able to have confidence in God's promise, but if his promise to Abraham was metaphorical who knows what, then in what way or sense, can I have security in God's promises to me?<br /><br />That my friend is what you stepped into.Gov98https://www.blogger.com/profile/08591233575630981982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-26898942496769285072010-03-02T14:40:38.178-06:002010-03-02T14:40:38.178-06:00Dan,
As I'm reading your comment, I'm rea...Dan,<br /><br />As I'm reading your comment, I'm really wishing we could go to Starbucks. I don't know what you mean when you say:<br /><br /><i>It does if you're trying to argue, contrary to Scripture, that you are in any sense "Israel" (unless you're Jewish).</i><br /><br />Why would it even matter if I am Jewish or not? (Please understand that I'm not trying to bait you, be sarcastic, or anything other than making honest, ignorant, inquiry). I'm a co-heir with Jesus, not only a son of Abraham, and therefor an heir to all things. The Jew has no advantage over me now. Neither does the latino, for that matter. I feel that I must be missing something in your comment that I am not aware of.<br /><br />I also do not understand this:<br /><br /><i>But you wouldn't want to be within ten miles of 2 Corinthians 1:20, in that case... unless you're willing to transform it into "all the promises of God are 'Not really!' and 'Fooled ya!' in Him."</i><br /><br />This must be an inside dig on something, but I cannot imagine what. Unless it is aimed at an amil person particularly, in which case it is no wonder that I didn't feel the punch-line. <br /><br />And, look at this word verification! "progical" That must be me! Help me home, Dan!Brad Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00197301845256854051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-78294924768276958592010-03-02T14:28:43.491-06:002010-03-02T14:28:43.491-06:00Dan,
I'm not an amil guy. But I'm not sur...Dan,<br /><br />I'm not an amil guy. But I'm not sure exactly what a "replacement" theology of Israel means. All I am saying is that Israel is not inheriting a thing that I myself will not also inherit as a son of Abraham.Brad Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00197301845256854051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-58938183631127822222010-03-02T14:20:02.793-06:002010-03-02T14:20:02.793-06:00Brad — I'm not certain that it matters whether...<b>Brad</b> — <i>I'm not certain that it matters whether I am a son of Abraham or Jacob, does it?</i><br /><br />It does if you're trying to argue, contrary to Scripture, that you are in any sense "Israel" (unless you're Jewish).<br /><br /><i>If tithes given to Melchizidek by Abraham demonstrate the superiority of Melchizidek to Levi, then surely Abraham's inheritance is not lesser than Jacob who came after him. I'm also considering 2 Cor. 1:20 in this as well.</i><br /><br />Oh, whew! What a relief! I thought you were trying to argue for amillennialism or replacement theology! But you wouldn't want to be within ten miles of 2 Corinthians 1:20, in that case... unless you're willing to transform it into "all the promises of God are 'Not really!' and 'Fooled ya!' in Him."DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-15296376680689864492010-03-02T13:46:58.099-06:002010-03-02T13:46:58.099-06:00Let's see. This article was posted on Tuesday...Let's see. This article was posted on Tuesday morning, it's still Tuesday morning, and there are...43 comments already!? Gadzooks!<br /><br />The entire post was only 10 words long! (And that's including the title and counting a hyphenated word as two words.) Talk about maximizing ROI!Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-73882831780270913412010-03-02T13:33:13.084-06:002010-03-02T13:33:13.084-06:00Al, only if Fred promises to stick it out until yo...Al, only if Fred promises to stick it out until you're through spinning.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-82513554655911420192010-03-02T13:29:48.541-06:002010-03-02T13:29:48.541-06:00The world will end May 21, 2011.
Glad we cleare...<em>The world will end May 21, 2011. </em> <br /><br />Glad we cleared that up! DS is designing the website for a Congressional candidate and in addition to the National Debt clock and the Countdown to Election Day clock he was hoping to incorporate a Rapture Clock. But alas, we didn't have a date. He can now proceed with making the candidate look "irresponsible, nutty, and sensationalistic." <br /><br /><em>Followers <b>dressed children in their Sunday best</b> and held Bibles open-faced toward heaven.</em><br /><br />Just the children? The adults didn't have enough respect for their Lord to meet him in their Sunday-go-to-meetin' best? More troublesome is the fact that they've never even given Dispensationalism a fair chance. Here is clear evidence they've never even seen <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ly4CPRE_Ke0" rel="nofollow">A Thief in the Night</a>. If they had, they'd know that the clothes get left behind in a heap.Paulahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15700962695127146890noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-4901623067351585342010-03-02T13:29:48.540-06:002010-03-02T13:29:48.540-06:00Dan, Do you mind if I interact with Fred on Matthe...Dan, Do you mind if I interact with Fred on Matthew 23/24?<br /><br />al sendsAlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02659402617723892967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-31469107495435343182010-03-02T12:55:21.715-06:002010-03-02T12:55:21.715-06:00Sorry about that.
Don Green's critique of p...Sorry about that. <br /><br /><a href="http://www.thegracelifepulpit.com/articles/A%20CRITIQUE%20OF%20PRETERISM.pdf" rel="nofollow">Don Green's critique of preterism</a><br /><br />and <br /><br />Barry Horner's <a href="http://futureisraelministries.org/files/The_Olivet_Discourse_pp._1-61_complete_.pdf" rel="nofollow">study on Matthew 24</a>Fred Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16025967176465685306noreply@blogger.com