tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post3406465288984655674..comments2024-03-01T21:01:15.174-06:00Comments on Biblical Christianity: Police in Dearborn, Michigan, defending Muslims against the Gospel (and the Constitution)DJPhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-40699115266965011132010-07-17T17:43:38.999-05:002010-07-17T17:43:38.999-05:00These are also recent videos on the arrests..
htt...These are also recent videos on the arrests..<br /><br />http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4071<br /><br />http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4070anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07194252226135811667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-34458273215012309952010-07-17T16:33:47.114-05:002010-07-17T16:33:47.114-05:00Hey Dan,
I ran across this and thought such an u...Hey Dan, <br /><br />I ran across this and thought such an update might interest some. I didn't know if I should email it to you or put it here even though it's been a while since anything was posted under this topic. I decided to go with here.<br /><br />Some update info. on that Dearborn nonsense;<br /><br />http://www.abnsat.com/abnnew/Ron (aka RealityCheck)https://www.blogger.com/profile/03274921909241630662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-31959336437311830102010-06-30T20:47:49.507-05:002010-06-30T20:47:49.507-05:00Ok so this is what I found out this week from a br...Ok so this is what I found out this week from a brother in the Lord who lives in Dearborn.<br /><br />Some Christians are frustrated with the restriction to occupy a booth to hand out materials or engage people at the festival only as the public approaches them. It is a problem for many Muslims walking up to an overtly Christian booth as it puts them at risk of reprisals from family and friends.<br /><br />Additionally, most of the people who live in Dearborn and Dearborn Heights are not willing to challenge the rules of engagement for the festival. There is very little public discussion of the push toward accommodating the preferences of the Muslim population. We have seen this even at the U of M campus in Dearborn which has a very active Muslim Accommodation Task Force. Some Christians in the area realize that if the issues are not discussed that the problem will only get worse, but getting a public conversation going has been tough.<br /><br />I do think the rules at the festival were overly restrictive. However, those rules are not new and they are open to be challenged. If you don't challenge them before the festival and you want to violate them by handing out copies of the gospel of John you should be prepared to deal with the consequences.<br /><br />I have wondered what the reaction would have been had they preached the gospel instead of handing out copies.JustJanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01018736121402047952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-35868446148658807822010-06-27T15:22:20.658-05:002010-06-27T15:22:20.658-05:00Sir Aaron,
My husband sometimes goes out with a f...Sir Aaron,<br /><br />My husband sometimes goes out with a friend to South Philly and does the same, and some nights it gets a little tense. Sometimes the police show up if there is an irate heckler, but it's usually to protect the few, not the mob. The example in Dan's post is the exact opposite. The only mob I could see was the mob in uniform. Having been a former security officer myself, I'll say that the camera man might have thought better than to walk up behind the officers and get closer to the scene. Those men are armed... Just sayin'.Merrilee Stevensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12770625841767761025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-6811623148728874662010-06-26T20:14:50.122-05:002010-06-26T20:14:50.122-05:00Any disturbance. A lot of officers looked like th...Any disturbance. A lot of officers looked like they were in the area and were just standing around.<br /><br />Merrilee, of course they targeted Christians. Heathen don't like Christians. I have friends who used to evangelize on the street corners on Friday nights in Houston (Way of the Master style). They stopped because it started getting very dangerous. These types of things happen all the time at homosexual parades and rallies. A couple Christians show up to hand out tracts or protest, the mob of hedonists get all riled up, then the police swoop down and lock up the Christians.<br /><br />It appears these guys knew what was going to happen and that's why they videotaped it.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15285043747501470199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-62316420047775932242010-06-26T12:17:31.327-05:002010-06-26T12:17:31.327-05:00I'm also annoyed at the fact that the Police o...I'm also annoyed at the fact that the Police officer confiscated his camera. As a media major, I know for a fact that the rule is you are allowed to film ANYTHING that is public without fear of reprisal or lawsuit. True, he gave it back, but he shouldn't have taken it in the first place.<br />BTW, did anyone notice hoe one of the Officers seemed to turn around and go "Oh jeez, that guys' TAPING this?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-34861256484391296432010-06-26T07:35:59.647-05:002010-06-26T07:35:59.647-05:00Eight policemen... to handle a few guys holding Go...Eight policemen... to handle a few guys holding Gospels of John? Yikes.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-69340477008199646602010-06-26T05:22:53.952-05:002010-06-26T05:22:53.952-05:00I came late to the comment thread, but I had a dis...I came late to the comment thread, but I had a disturbing dream last night, and when I awoke, it was this video that I began to think over. (Could it be related to the dream?)<br /><br />But here are my thoughts: I don't think it's a stretch to call it targeting Christians. If these guys were handing out coupons for free chicken sandwiches, would they have been arrested and told to go 5 blocks away? No, it really appears that the officers were already on their way before the cameras even started rolling, as if they were expecting to arrest these men.<br /><br />Did Josh have to pay a fee to have his booth in the festival? If so, then is that really freedom, or something else?Merrilee Stevensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12770625841767761025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-5507988862486095392010-06-26T00:17:05.374-05:002010-06-26T00:17:05.374-05:00These guys also posted a response to your question...These guys also posted a response to your question, David. You might want to check it out.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15285043747501470199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-52809922355320329192010-06-26T00:09:06.265-05:002010-06-26T00:09:06.265-05:00David:
If you are arguing that these guys did som...David:<br /><br />If you are arguing that these guys did something illegal, then I'd disagree. The group clearly planned to have this happen and were very careful not to break any laws so that they would have a clear cut case. IF they did break any laws, as far as I'm concerned, they were totally unconstitutional.<br /><br />If you are arguing that these guys are a bit overdramatic about enforcement of Sharia law, then I'd agree. However, it's a fact that Sharia law prohibits proselytizing by other religions and it's a fact that many Muslims want Sharia law to be enforced over the whole of the planet. That they are doing it in a slow methodical manner, using our own tolerance against us doesn't make it any less serious a threat in the long term.<br /><br />What's going on here is that the Muslims are using the same subtlety that other groups use. Cast Christians as the hate mongers who disturb the peace then get law enforcement to remove them from the field as the offenders. Police Officers, much like the military, generally follow orders and take them into custody regardless of any feelings they may have about the situation(not an excuse but an explanation).<br /><br />Watch and see. This will never go to trial.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15285043747501470199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-20671186011657786632010-06-25T23:54:15.141-05:002010-06-25T23:54:15.141-05:00DJP:
Eight cops, four suspects. That's not a...DJP:<br /><br />Eight cops, four suspects. That's not at all unusual. I've performed arrests with a much, much higher ratio than that. It's not an atypical response if you are going to make that many arrests.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15285043747501470199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-87575355842358948202010-06-25T19:44:54.914-05:002010-06-25T19:44:54.914-05:00Thanks for all your thoughts, Dan.
The most chari...Thanks for all your thoughts, Dan.<br /><br />The most charitable thought I can muster in view of that massive show of force is that they feared violence <i>against</i> the Christians, by the Muslims.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-51976772849286051022010-06-25T19:41:26.728-05:002010-06-25T19:41:26.728-05:00I also have to concur, this is not about Sharia La...I also have to concur, this is not about Sharia Law .... Yet. They main problem here is the clear cut violation of the Constitution. I'd be willing to bet my badge that those officers swore to UPHOLD the Constitution of the United States of America and the Constitution of their state. Hence the title ... sworn officer. Their willingness to prevent the peaceful handing out of literature to festival goers flies in the face of the very oaths they gave upon becoming lawmen. Absolutely shameful.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18415493140199501724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-52953846769576818842010-06-25T15:36:54.002-05:002010-06-25T15:36:54.002-05:00Concur that this is not about Sharia but rather ab...Concur that this is not about Sharia but rather about free speech. It is unclear whether or not these folks were even charged, which is a common tactic to avoid judicial review. The group would now have to file suit to get a judge to even look at the issue. The authorities calculate the odds of this occuring and make decisions accordingly. Again, though, it is just about keeping the peace (perhaps unreasonably) and I think it is a stretch to characterize it as targeting Christians or Christianity per se.RThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08285891444546787144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-69707194730171889332010-06-25T15:30:37.565-05:002010-06-25T15:30:37.565-05:00"The bottom line is that these Christians wer..."The bottom line is that these Christians weren't doing anything illegal and they're rights were violated. Their case wil undoubtedly be dismissed quietly (which isn't a whole lot of consolation)."<br /><br />Honestly? We don't know if they were doing anything illegal or not. Nor do we really know all their past. It would seem that a quick perusal of their site gives the impression that "this ain't their first rodeo".<br /><br />Here's my arguement. They claim that Muslims are trying to enact Shiria Law on American soil. Shiria Law prohibits any sort of "evangelism" by a Christian. Yet they allowd Mr. McDowell to do just that.<br /><br />Doesn't this sort of shoot down their arguement?<br /><br />My understanding is that they cannot distribute materials within a certain zone around the festival without a booth. It would appear as though they were within that zone.<br /><br />I'm just saying that we shouldn't be so quick to judge someone as wrong because they are Arab or Muslim any more than we should judge someone as correct because they are a Christian.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12261152483489985683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-5510891616254820602010-06-25T15:03:01.222-05:002010-06-25T15:03:01.222-05:00David:
I only asked the question because that Dav...David:<br /><br />I only asked the question because <i>that</i> David also did not have a profile and is merely a trouble-maker. So I wasn't going to engage.<br /><br />I'm not an expert on Islam, but from what I understand is that Sharia law specifically prohibits any evangelism (except for Islamic, of course). The conference was Arab not necessarily for Islam (but that seems like a trivial distinction to me). I disagree that the police were enforcing Sharia law. IMHO, what's going on is not specific to Islam. Homosexual events and other secular events have the same problems. People don't like what the Bible says about the exclusiveness of salvation or sin, so they create problems or lie to start fights with Christians. The heathen's natural response is to placate the group that screams the loudest, and besides they don't like Christians anyways. The Police enforcement merely is a reflection of this policy. They also don't want a riot so it's easier to remove the Christians than to protect free speech.<br /><br />To secularlists, an enemy of my enemy is my friend. When Christians are persecuted and safely put under tyranny, the Muslims will turn on the secularists (which is what European countries are beginning to figure out). <br /><br />The bottom line is that these Christians weren't doing anything illegal and they're rights were violated. Their case wil undoubtedly be dismissed quietly (which isn't a whole lot of consolation).Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15285043747501470199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-46716246632430339422010-06-25T14:29:01.511-05:002010-06-25T14:29:01.511-05:00David wrote, "...link to Mr. McDowell's v...David wrote, "...link to Mr. McDowell's video where he says that the chief of police was nothing but gracious towards him?"<br /><br />Three things to remember:<br /><br />1. Police will usually be gracious to anyone who follows the rules <i>as they determine them</i>.<br /><br />2. The rules they set are sometimes morally and/or constitutionally wrong -- e.g. "Don't pass out gospel literature here in this public place"; <br /><br />or "Don't cross this line if you are 'colored folk' [to put it more nicely than they may have]", <i>a la</i> Martin Luther King's baton-weilding captors;<br /><br />or "stop evangelizing children!", <i>a la</i> the Soviet <i>politsiya</i> who through Georgi Vins into prison.<br /><br />3. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came..." rel="nofollow">"...then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up..."</a> -- Pastor Martin NiemollerTerry Rayburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00888533194435826837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-56959502354199559642010-06-25T13:34:53.998-05:002010-06-25T13:34:53.998-05:00Hey Guys - I can say I'm not that David. I'...Hey Guys - I can say I'm not that David. I've never commented at the Pyro blogs, although I have read in the past.<br /><br />And don't get me wrong. I think that the only way to the Father is through the Son. Doesn't matter who you are or where you were born. You want forgiveness and reconciliation for the fact that you are a totally corrupt and sinful human being? You need Jesus' blood to cover your sins. End of story.<br /><br />As far as whether or not this was a "one true voice" scenario, I doubt it. I'm pretty confident that people who have active ministries "around the world" had representation there and were sharing the good news. <br /><br />That still doesn't answer the question: if Shiria Law doesn't allow for anyone to share a faith other than Islam, why would they allow Mr. McDowell to be there?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12261152483489985683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-32320563508771881942010-06-25T13:05:56.426-05:002010-06-25T13:05:56.426-05:00“I have a question. Is this the same David from th...“I have a question. Is this the same David from the evolution threads at Pyro?”<br /><br />Sir Aaron,<br />I was wondering the exact same thing last night. I have purposely stayed out of the debate at Pyro (this time around) because I quite frankly am tired of arguing with “Christians” to put Scripture ahead of whatever the latest scientific belief is… Colossians 2:8 anyone?!? However, last night I was reading a small thread over at “Hip and Thigh” where Fred Butler is talking about Theistic Evolution and BioLogos as well and noticed that a person named “David” was being a bit persnickety and suddenly the light went on. I’m not sure if it’s the same person or not but I linked him something to chew on if he’s really looking for answers.Ron (aka RealityCheck)https://www.blogger.com/profile/03274921909241630662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-25913275612854443052010-06-25T12:50:04.306-05:002010-06-25T12:50:04.306-05:00David,
I watched the video from Josh and quite fra...David,<br />I watched the video from Josh and quite frankly I found it concerning. I get the impression from the combination of Josh’s video and this video that some kind of deal was struck. Something along the lines of, if the free distribution of Christian material "from a single source" is allowed within the festival, we the police, will not allow any such material to be distributed within a five block radius. Now I’m not sure this is the case and that’s why we all should want organizations like ACLJ or ADF to look into it.<br /><br />We always need to keep this in mind David, “Be of sober spirit, be on the alert Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. -1 Peter 5:8. Working out a deal that allows a few Christians a controlled voice while completely denying the voice of ALL others (and their Constitutional rights) may look like a win-win at first but lead to a greater loss in the future.Ron (aka RealityCheck)https://www.blogger.com/profile/03274921909241630662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-55380876535478116982010-06-25T12:28:04.295-05:002010-06-25T12:28:04.295-05:00I have a question. Is this the same David from th...I have a question. Is this the same David from the evolution threads at Pyro?Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15285043747501470199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-49577853072741052252010-06-25T12:01:51.388-05:002010-06-25T12:01:51.388-05:00Dan, and everyone, here's one question I have ...Dan, and everyone, here's one question I have yet to see an answer for:<br /><br />If this was a matter where Muslim's are trying to enact Shira law on American soil, then why did they allow a well known Christian Apologist such as Josh McDowell to distribute materials at their festival?<br /><br />Perhaps you would be willing, Dan, to link to Mr. McDowell's video where he says that the chief of police was nothing but gracious towards him?<br /><br />http://www.josh.org/site/c.ddKDIMNtEqG/b.5733261/k.68C6/Dearborn_Arab_Festival.htmUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12261152483489985683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-26047238083837727202010-06-25T11:11:36.504-05:002010-06-25T11:11:36.504-05:00Laziness I get, more's the pity. (c;
But all ...Laziness I get, more's the pity. (c;<br /><br />But all your other questions are answered in the comments above; so I don't really have anything to add.<br /><br />Except to say that if I find that even my wording, with the links I gave to fuller information, needs any modification, when more information comes to light, I'll do it.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-29539455683370957682010-06-25T10:58:22.277-05:002010-06-25T10:58:22.277-05:00Well, Dan, I can assure that I am both a Christian...Well, Dan, I can assure that I am both a Christian and a citizen of the United States of America. The fact I have no profile is that I don't use nor comment on blogger. So I had to create one. Trust me, nothing sinister here. Laziness, perhaps, but nothing sinister.<br /><br />The point is this, and this is what is so frustrating, we hear one side of a story and it is widely accepted as truth because it fits with our preconceived notions. I find it humorous that Christians believe that the government is filled with a bunch of Godless Atheists yet will gladly welcome Muslims and their law. It's as though we think the secularists are saying, "We want a separation of Church and State - unless it's a Muslim church and then, bring it on."<br /><br />I would be inclined to agree with you had there not been clear evidence that there must be more to this story than we see from the gentlemen from the video. Josh McDowell, with whom I may not agree on every jot and tittle of theology, but would probably find myself in agreement with more often than not, was welcomed to distribute literature on festival grounds. If Shiria Law was of primary concern, why would you allow a well known Christian Apologist on your grounds? Mr. McDowell played by the rules of the festival, got a booth and passed out Christian literature. That’s where my Romans 13 comment came from – apologies for not making myself clear last evening.<br />Perhaps I can challenge those who disagree with my assessment to do a little research on the issue rather than simply taking one person's perspective. <br /><br />Oh, and one other thought. Those who claim to follow Christ should keep this in mind. Jesus had his "rights" trampled on every moment while He walked on this earth. I find it humorous that His followers expect that we receive better treatment than He received.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12261152483489985683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-77213142212829880462010-06-25T09:20:51.792-05:002010-06-25T09:20:51.792-05:00Terry:
In case I am misunderstood, allow me to cl...Terry:<br /><br />In case I am misunderstood, allow me to clarify that it is the proposed restriction on free speech, not the free speech, that must serve a legitimate state interest. In this case, I imagine the state would argue that the legitimate state interest served by the restriction is "law and order" or "public safety." Obviously there is some point at which we all prefer to be protected from religious zealotry, or even aggressive commercial salesmanship. At its best, the law tries to find and administer fairly that boundary for the good of all citizens. Often, however, (and this case is probably an example) local authorities lean way over in favor of public peace at the expense of legitimate speech.RThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08285891444546787144noreply@blogger.com