tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post4485854165969873756..comments2024-03-01T21:01:15.174-06:00Comments on Biblical Christianity: Kinder in the Kirche / Tots in the TabernacleDJPhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-30357045384393434192008-12-16T13:57:00.000-06:002008-12-16T13:57:00.000-06:00In church this Sunday I sat in the row behind a mo...In church this Sunday I sat in the row behind a mother and her teen daughter and the teen daugther's boyfriend. Mom sat there oblivious as her daughter was talking to and kissing her boyfriend during the musical worship. Appropriate behavior is not always about lack of noise. That was really distracting to me, and I could not believe that mom either didn't know or didn't care. The church has a very laid back atmosphere in general, but that really crossed the line. I guess parenting in church doesn't stop when the kids learn to sit still!Angiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05653642755796812958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-25569826456346756942008-12-15T17:10:00.000-06:002008-12-15T17:10:00.000-06:00It's actually 'Kinder in der Kirche'.Glad to be of...It's actually 'Kinder in der Kirche'.<BR/><BR/>Glad to be of help. :)wilcohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01739755234958428857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-29452486658001505182008-12-13T01:23:00.000-06:002008-12-13T01:23:00.000-06:00We were in a church for years where children were ...We were in a church for years where children were expected to be in the children's program, and not in 'adult church', though they weren't forbidden. We brought them into church with us (for a variety of reasons) and taught them to behave.<BR/><BR/>While I didn't want to bring them a suitcase of distractions, I'll note that some children do listen better while their little hands are occupied :0)<BR/><BR/>Our home church now has no child-care past age 2. The first time we visited I spotted a laminated card in the pew rack explaining their beliefs regarding children in church. Among many other encouraging things, it says, very simply, <BR/><BR/>"Be willing to allow for a certain amount of noise and distraction when children are present. At the same time, be sensitive to those around you who may not be accustomed to children's ways."<BR/><BR/>Now doesn't that address both sides of the issue graciously?!<BR/><BR/>The children are provided with paper and pencils and encouraged to take notes (and/or draw pictures) to remember the sermon. They give these to the Pastor and he acknowledges them from the pulpit the following Sunday. And the Pastor finds ways to address and include the children without being childish.<BR/><BR/>The kids are all used to this and there are few distractions. If a child is getting too noisy or wiggly, the parents remove the child to the foyer. <BR/><BR/>Parents with kids younger than two often use the first part of the service (singing, announcements, offering, etc) when there is more activity, to begin training their little ones in church behavior, and then take them to the nursery during the sermon.<BR/><BR/>It's a beautiful thing. The children are welcomed as part of the body, not an unwelcome distraction.Herding Grasshoppershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15668974245505544238noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-35406637620944713972008-12-10T10:59:00.000-06:002008-12-10T10:59:00.000-06:00I think I'm a bit like Annette here.Some churches ...I think I'm a bit like Annette here.<BR/><BR/>Some churches actively discourage children in the service. I was at one such church once that is huge, but very grounded. Their childcare due to thier size is very institutional and my children after one experience with it begged to be allowed to stay with us. <BR/><BR/>While I admire this churches efforts, and I know the workers are all very loving and to the best of my knowledge godly folk I and my wife did not like their arrangements either.<BR/><BR/>But the ushers made it clear that we were not welcome to have our children with us, which at that point equates to our not being welcome as a whole. I can only imagine what a family of new believers visiting or that is not saved or some such might think.<BR/><BR/>I have also heard many a person complain about "people who won't put their kids in the nursery" when I know very well those people ARE sitting in the back, and they ARE working hard to teach their kids how to behave in "big church" and they are very convicted about thier need to have their kids worship with them. The noises made were very minor and I am very easily distracted and sit in front as well (I was one of the first kids they tried to get on Ritalin thankfully my parents declined) but I think I can use the opportunity to learn self discipline, and show grace to a family who wants to honour God and worship together with the blessing of their children.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>I wonder where all the kids were when Nehemiaha spoke?LeeChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05540608568274871363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-39231364179845245902008-12-09T22:21:00.000-06:002008-12-09T22:21:00.000-06:00My struggle with an only child in a church filled ...My struggle with an only child in a church filled with predominately older adults is that there is very little tolerance for the noise of a toddler. "he should be in a the babysit". But this three year old doesn't want to be in the babysit. he's a "big boy now".<BR/><BR/>So my options are ...<BR/>try to have him stay in church be a bit noisy...which gets me 'tsked' OR for me to take him out. he's three...I don't expect complete silence and he does well until the sermon starts and then we go out to the 'quiet room'.<BR/><BR/>I would prefer to sit IN CHURCH with him, but with the 'tsking' it feels like that is not an option.<BR/><BR/>Maybe I just don't know how to train him to be quiet....busy lad that he is...I'm just not sure how to do that and not feel pressured when he does make noise. He picks up on that and just wants to be out of there. it's a difficult balancing act.Annettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07731853888897956775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-7616706227871138762008-12-09T13:31:00.000-06:002008-12-09T13:31:00.000-06:00We had an issue with our 4 year old son misbehavin...We had an issue with our 4 year old son misbehaving and being highly disruptive in Sunday school to the point where I had to be paged from the service to remove him from the class. <BR/><BR/>I had a "meeting" with him after we got home from church that day where I made it clear that God's command to obey dad & mom also included obeying the other grown-ups that were charged with his care<BR/><BR/>We have not had a problem with his behaviour in Sunday school since then, which we praise him for.James Joycehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15983848193844746369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-79680304034538147892008-12-09T12:28:00.000-06:002008-12-09T12:28:00.000-06:00No dolls, crayons, and never the Dairy Queen after...No dolls, crayons, and never the Dairy Queen after church as a wee one(am remembering back to 2 or 3 years). Rather it is remembered sitting quietly(movement and sound) and a refined elderly lady with hat and gloves turning after the sermon to give me a coin for the collection plate ~ <I>good girl</I>. Am I the only one reading that was taught to be most concerned with what one would get for not aligning with parental expectations? Not suggesting that approach(on the order of ~ I brought you into this world and if you miss the mark can take you right back out again...at least had me think that so). <BR/><BR/>Appreciate Dan's thoughtfulness though his posts recently have taken me down memory lane(bitter/sweet). Scared of him, the gentleman with 4 cats that leads his family so well? Gratefully respect him and his wife, indeed. :-)J♥Yce Burrowshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14974221921014132431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-47764399374854777052008-12-09T08:03:00.000-06:002008-12-09T08:03:00.000-06:00Oh yes. I once preached in a church in which the c...Oh yes. I once preached in a church in which the children literally ran loose. A baby was allowed to crawl up to the pulpit as I preached. It was chaos.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-56522009303205326242008-12-09T07:38:00.000-06:002008-12-09T07:38:00.000-06:00My church is an example of well behaved kids durin...My church is an example of well behaved kids during service. We do have seating in the back for moms with younger toddlers and babies, and we have a closed in room if a child needs further training with behavior in church. But, like I said previously, I have visited other churches that where kids walk up and down the aisles, people talk during worship, and people bring in coffee or such. Very annoying and disrespectful in my opinion....but hey...I also get really annoyed at kids screaming in carts at the store or throwing items on the floor while mom ignores the little darling. I appreciate Alastair Begg who did not hesitate to call children like that, "Little brats", in his wonderful accent.candyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06088593538648596769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-66789446961592466432008-12-09T07:15:00.000-06:002008-12-09T07:15:00.000-06:00I'm not scared of Dan either. I have opinions, and...I'm not scared of Dan either. I have opinions, and I'm not afraid to use them...<BR/><BR/> Actually, the only thing we do differently is deliberately sit at the front because we've found the children are more engaged with the speaker and less likely to think they're just in the queue to get to the books in the quiet room. My middle daughter is a bit of a lolloper, which we're working on, but so far, it's worked ok.Kayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14873728356115837593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-6384074838720871582008-12-08T22:17:00.000-06:002008-12-08T22:17:00.000-06:00Anyone who uses the world's coolest nighttime torn...Anyone who uses the world's coolest nighttime tornado picture ever in their blog can cry in our church all they want. Just not during the sermon. ;-)Gilberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05267525662313103148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-26729189015071191592008-12-08T18:00:00.000-06:002008-12-08T18:00:00.000-06:00Oh puhleeeese.I'm a fifth generation PK.Scared of ...Oh puhleeeese.<BR/><BR/>I'm a fifth generation PK.<BR/><BR/>Scared of no one and smarter than everyone, that was my motto growing up.<BR/><BR/>This no doubt explains why I was <I>such</I> a <I>delight</I> to my parents in my youth.<BR/><BR/>/sarcasmRachael Starkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10781158372237369417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-91284033128876752732008-12-08T16:04:00.000-06:002008-12-08T16:04:00.000-06:00Maybe they're just all scared of me...Well, look a...<EM>Maybe they're just all scared of me...</EM><BR/><BR/>Well, look at what you're holding in your picture. Who wouldn't be?threegirldadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10514416693800430357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-49503464677956729842008-12-08T15:59:00.000-06:002008-12-08T15:59:00.000-06:00Maybe they're just all scared of me, Rachael. Like...Maybe they're just all scared of me, Rachael. Like you aren't.<BR/><BR/>(c;DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-8889629575790721272008-12-08T15:53:00.000-06:002008-12-08T15:53:00.000-06:00Wow. I thought this post would inspire a lot more ...Wow. I thought this post would inspire a lot more back and forthing, but if all the other mom readers are like my gang, it's laundry day, and it's hard to type and fold at the same time. :)<BR/><BR/>Or, most have been silenced by your very balanced, pastoral thoughts. :)<BR/><BR/>But it did spark for me a few other thoughts like:<BR/><BR/>1. I wish more churches would incorporate what their particular philosophy of orderly worship is in whatever new members/interested-in-membership class a church offers. This would be the perfect place to cover everything from children to talking, cell phones, people with disabilities, hand raising and saying "Amen", arriving early to quiet down and prepare for worship, aaaaall that stuff. What's a church's position, and how does it strive to love and help the body to follow along with it? And especially, how are church members encouraged to love and welcome new visitors and help them in a way that causes them to understand and appreciate the church's approach, rather than hightail it outta there the minute the closing prayer is over?<BR/><BR/>2. If there's one thing having 3 girls, all with the same chromosomes but very different temperaments, has taught me, it's that every child really is different. Some are placid, some are easiily bored, some handle missing naps on Sundays with grace while others.... not so much. And that's true at age 1, age 2, etc. It's very easy when you've been blessed with one or more young children who are more naturally placid to think that other parents who have not been so blessed are doing something wrong. <BR/><BR/>3. Whenever I've been in a situation where childcare is not available for whatever reason and yet I still want/need to be in the service, I always take a minute and pray for both my antsy 2 y.o. and the people around us, that the Holy Spirit would give those around us attentive ears to the Word and a desire to not be easily distracted. And also that the Holy Spirit, who knows what it's like to inhabit a 2 y.o. body, would give Kate grace and peace to sit quietly and even be able to participate in whatever way her little mind allows. God has often been particularly gracious in those situations.Rachael Starkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10781158372237369417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-53722246682437479332008-12-08T15:32:00.000-06:002008-12-08T15:32:00.000-06:00Yes, it does depend VERY much on the expectations/...Yes, it does depend VERY much on the expectations/standards of the parent. Unfortunately, some parents disregard common courtesy themselves.<BR/><BR/>Like you, we prefer to sit 'up front'. However, when we brought our two daughters home from Russia at ages 9 and 12 1/2 we chose to sit farther back in the congregation while we trained our girls to sit still and quietly during the services. Neither of them had any prior experience with such expectations--not to mention all the other adjustments they were going through in a new country/culture.<BR/><BR/>Once they were able to sit still and quietly, we slowly began sitting closer and closer to the front. And yes, they did have some 'relapses', but the standard has been set from the very beginning.<BR/><BR/>Why is it that some parents think it is such a horrible thing for me to train my daughters (who clearly could sit through a 1-2 hr. long movie without a bathroom break) to go to the restroom BEFORE the service begins rather than wait till the middle of the service (our youngest tried that little approach many times--guess who finally won that battle?) :-) It is NOT a horrible thing, it is part of training--not just for church, but for life!<BR/><BR/>I've seen it done over and over with children of varying ages as different families have come into our church. Some come from churches were the children's programs were plentiful and designed to 'baby sit' rather than teach the Word. These parents have made the challenging choice to include their children in our worship services, and have begun slowly, but steadily.<BR/><BR/>You've made your point(s) very well, and I agree that it calls for firmness, wisdom, and compassion--an the parts of many!Conniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16388126339087271102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-85048098108083246742008-12-08T15:15:00.000-06:002008-12-08T15:15:00.000-06:00I agree that it has much to do with our expectatio...I agree that it has much to do with our expectations. In the church I grew up in there was nursery for kids UP TO age 2. Once they hit 2, they were expected to be in church. And it really wasn't a problem. Also, parents didn't show up with a suitcase full of distractions to keep the kid busy. Now it seems like our expectations are so low. Our current church has childrens' church for kids throught 4th grade! Training your kid to sit there like a bump on a log is not easy but, I can attest, it can be done.Kim K.https://www.blogger.com/profile/03046650994911007027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-62897087075286091072008-12-08T12:18:00.000-06:002008-12-08T12:18:00.000-06:00In some traditions (like the Episcopal church I at...In some traditions (like the Episcopal church I attend) Biblical teaching, if any, is conducted in classes and study groups rather than from the pulpit. The service being liturgical (standing, kneeling, reciting prayers, creed etc.) tends to keep the little incorrigibles occupied. At any rate I have never been particularly distracted. Of course it is important to emphasize that there is nothing much to concentrate on in the first place. If I were actually having to digest a weighty exposition of Holy Writ while sitting next to a bumptious toddler, then I would probably become annoyed, although the demands of Christian charity would presumably require a certain level of patience. Sensitivity on both sides (imagine me advocating sensitivity!) would seem to be in order, unless of course it is acceptable to simply throttle the child - probably not, though tempting it certainly would be.RThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08285891444546787144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-91935938184798024552008-12-08T11:43:00.000-06:002008-12-08T11:43:00.000-06:00Excellent words, Dan. A toddler who can learn all...Excellent words, Dan. A toddler who can learn all the lyrics to "Dora the Explorer" in both languages can also learn that church is where we sit quietly. <BR/><BR/>I think another commenter on the post that inspired the comment that inspired this post had it right about idolizing our children and, I'll add an extension: we moms are told over and over again (by the world) that having young children somehow means we have a free pass. It's so hard, you know, and these children are so spirited, you know, and I'm so very tired, you know, and Dad's never home, you know, and they didn't eat their breakfast, you know, and she missed her nap yesterday, you know... <BR/><BR/>Churches spend buckets on Sunday School curricula, yet where are the programs/pastors/elders that teach parents of itty-bitties how to find their strength and help in Christ (not in Ezzo or Sears or Moms Club)?Colloquisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08530006843488477150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-11756392538575048282008-12-08T11:28:00.000-06:002008-12-08T11:28:00.000-06:00Good post! We need to be considerate of others in ...Good post! We need to be considerate of others in the place of worship. If our kids are unusually disruptive (read: won't listen to us) then we should sit in the back or in some position where others' study won't be hurt. <BR/><BR/>If another parent has a kid that won't shut up, we need to remember that maybe they're just as exasperated as we are and offer them some help in an appropriate way at an appropriate time. <BR/><BR/>Like you Dan I tend to get distracted, but then my fight begins in that I have to watch to keep my spirit from becoming annoyed about it. <BR/><BR/>I hear some well-known teachers say that the whole family should always be in worship together but I just can't get with that in the way we do church today. Maybe in the house church where the interaction can be more free but in a church service of 100 people or more a crying child 15 inches from me is tough to deal with.<BR/><BR/>Though, it does give me a chance to practice patience. :)~Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01819856178499938127noreply@blogger.com