tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post6676760928215793352..comments2024-03-01T21:01:15.174-06:00Comments on Biblical Christianity: Disagreeing with John MacArthurDJPhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-5278027222897934012013-09-27T12:45:28.937-05:002013-09-27T12:45:28.937-05:00I happened to be poking around the web since I hea...I happened to be poking around the web since I heard not too long ago the the MSB would be released in the NIV. At one point in my life I was very involved in debates like this. Then one day as I marched out to my car to head to church with my shiny new genuine leather ESV under my arm. The Bible that I was convinced was the "best" translation a thought occurred to me. Neither of the neighbors on either side of me know Christ! Even if I did win them for Christ wouldn't I give them a Bible that made sense to them??? (i.e. NIV) Take a second and think how much time it has taken to write, read and respond to all these posts!!! GO DO SOMETHING!! Make a difference for the Kingdom! Read a Bible you understand and use e-sword if your curious what the Greek of Hebrew mean. Love you all, just think you need to hear it!The Funkshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12809052063471255927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-71094815628711025762012-02-24T22:14:14.065-06:002012-02-24T22:14:14.065-06:00I don't agree, Eric, and I think it's irre...I don't agree, Eric, and I think it's irrelevant and nobody's business. The workman is worthy of his hire.<br /><br />Read the post. Talk about the merits or demerits of the decision. Don't try to mind-read and manufacture accusations.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-8023427506883919342012-02-24T21:34:57.570-06:002012-02-24T21:34:57.570-06:00There's an easy way to see if money had absolu...There's an easy way to see if money had absolutely zero influence on pastor MacArthur's decision: is he waiving any right to royalties from Zondervan? If money has no influence, and he just wants to reach more people, then he would want Zondervan's costs to be as low as possible, so they'll sell at a cheaper price. He could even tell them that if the will agree to a low enough price, he will waive royalties (scholars in my field sometimes agree to reduced royalties in exchange for a lower price that will encourage more people to buy their book). <br /><br /> This would be true not only of the NIV study Bible, but of all his works. <br /><br />Of course, I expect he does take royalties, even if he perhaps gives away 90% of his income to the church. But if he does, then money is of some value to him, just as it is for everybody else. <br /><br /> I really would be curious, too, as to how much Zondervan is paying pastor MacArthur or any other party he has nominated to receive the royalties. Why is this not public information? What good motive could there be for keeping it secret?Eric Rasmusenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01609599580545475695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-38283147775504440472012-02-24T07:49:03.792-06:002012-02-24T07:49:03.792-06:00jmb,
You need to go read "Slave" and se...jmb,<br /><br />You need to go read "Slave" and see how strong his words are regarding how the word doulos has not been translated as slave in most English translations. He definitely isn't soft about how he handles it.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987985549747283669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-7457968568506355562012-02-23T22:14:28.917-06:002012-02-23T22:14:28.917-06:00Robert -
Phil Johnson wrote this:
"John Mac...Robert -<br /><br />Phil Johnson wrote this:<br /><br />"John MacArthur's preference for word-by-word exposition is well known. He also shares CBMW's conviction that the gender distinctions in Scripture are precise and deliberate and should be kept intact. Clearly, he would not support any effort to feminize the language of the Bible or adjust it for political correctness."<br /><br />My position is very simple: Because MacArthur takes this position on the TNIV, he should not lend his notes to it. As far as I know, he does not take this strong a position against the other translations he has used. Yes, as he says, all translations have their flaws, but there is a qualitative difference, it seems to me, between a "word-for-word exposition" and a thought-for-thought one that tries to be politically correct to boot.<br /><br />I have no doubt that MacArthur is being truthful when he says that he thinks many more people will be reached by using the TNIV. I personally don't think the ends justify the means. But I still greatly respect John MacArthur, and certainly don't think he's doing it for the money.jmbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07164857192077648887noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-22320037321724279052012-02-23T10:32:35.908-06:002012-02-23T10:32:35.908-06:00When I first read the title at pyromaniacs I thoug...When I first read the title at pyromaniacs I though oh nook not McArthur! But when I read the reasons why I agreed with it. I think it will have a positive outcome, with so many liberal churches and especially the gay/lesbian "churches" who would love to use a gender-neutral translation this could be a good way to get the gospel to them. Let's just pray that God will use this translation for his purposes. <br />And for the ones who are saying that he's going to change his notes did you not read the post at Pyromaniacs??? This is what Phil said:<br />"We submitted to Zondervan's editors a generous sampling of notes adapted to the NIV wording. We purposely chose notes that deal with some of the key problem passages. Zondervan and Nelson both have assured us they want to retain the full integrity of John MacArthur's explanation of the text, and the sample notes were all accepted as submitted"Moonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01385067178930906667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-39506956492563962632012-02-23T09:32:14.735-06:002012-02-23T09:32:14.735-06:00It is a subtle (one is tempted to say "nuance...It is a subtle (one is tempted to say "nuanced") argumentum ad hominem: "I disagree with your position and here are my reasons, but just to finish you off I also question your motives." The reality is that even if we assume a motive of conscious or unconscious greed (despite a litany of facts to the contrary) such assumptions add nothing whatever to the debate that matters - whether it is, or is not a responsible thing for a prominent Evangelical personality to publish a commentary on (and thereby seem to endorse) a dubious translation of the bible. Sadly, in the heated rhetoric that inevitably follows, whatever possiblity there was to persuade Dr. MacArthur of the error of his ways or to mitigate the damage he might do, simply gets lost in the unedifying scuffle.RThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08285891444546787144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-9858065229956708502012-02-23T09:30:18.394-06:002012-02-23T09:30:18.394-06:00Thanks Dan.
While I don't think I could prea...Thanks Dan. <br /><br />While I don't think I could preach in a Roman Catholic church - ever - I'd do all I could to get accurate exegesis and interpretation of God's Holy Word in as many hands as possible.<br /><br />PS - I'm sure I'm speaking for everyone - all 3,125.675 combined google/twitter/facebook carbon-based fans what can't wait for official release regarding your constant taunting and teasing of whatever (happy) teasing it is that you're teasing everyone about.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17885795712009955563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-33237138903286437482012-02-23T07:35:18.040-06:002012-02-23T07:35:18.040-06:00Dan, when you wrote, "We call this "the ...Dan, when you wrote, "We call this "the benefit of the doubt." Someone who has earned it should get it." you hit the nail on the head.<br /><br />And so much of our squabbles (and I mean in local churches, not just on the internet) would not even happen if we could just do this with our brothers and sisters.<br /><br />Instead, we have to give lengthy disclaimers, etc., etc.,Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03538171834808639471noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-67700247904363177012012-02-23T07:34:14.057-06:002012-02-23T07:34:14.057-06:00DJP has subtly whetted our appetites for his next ...DJP has subtly whetted our appetites for his next project, the TSB, "Thick Study Bible" subtitled "For those who are dull of hearing." ;-}Kerry James Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06083436735702873300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-11379829042342293002012-02-23T06:58:55.178-06:002012-02-23T06:58:55.178-06:00For myself, I'd nuance the option Looks like ...<i>For myself, I'd nuance the option</i> Looks like Frank influenced your writing. 8o)<br /><br />"I don't get this decision, I don't like it; but it doesn't change my respect for MacArthur, and that also means <i>there's likely to be some positive aspects I'm just not seeing</i>."<br /><br />You caught the essence of the problem there. Why can't people see <i>any</i> positive effects of this decision?<br /><br />Also wanted to mention that Fred Butler has a post laying out Phil's reply to the Baylys...it is great. Sadly, the response from the Baylys seems to have them doubling down again (or maybe quadrupling down?) They are still demanding proof instead of accepting what Phil told them and others confirmed.<br /><br />I can't help but to wonder if people ever think about whom it was that Paul was told he was persecuting. Was it the church? Was it particular pastors? No, he was persecuting Christ. May this give each of us pause and allow us to reflect before we decide to crusade against the efforts of any pastor or church.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987985549747283669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-12952963352263327992012-02-23T06:42:35.942-06:002012-02-23T06:42:35.942-06:00Well, there y'go, Bev.
There is a certain deg...Well, there y'go, Bev.<br /><br />There is a certain degree of comfort in anonymity; even more in not being thought much of. You make a decision, few notice. If some who do notice don't agree, they shrug. They didn't expect that much, anyway.<br /><br />Then there's John MacArthur, who <i>has earned</i> a reputation for integrity. What chagrins me is not that anyone would not love this decision. I'm ontologically certain that he, Phil and the rest knew that some wouldn't love the decision.<br /><br />What chagrins me is the <i>leap</i> some (unlike you) seem willing to make. It is as if the only two options are "John MacArthur does everything exactly as I think he should and I approve of him," and "John MacArthur made a mistake so I now know the vile truth of his moth-eaten pathetic character."<br /><br />Really? If that's it, God spare me prominence, ever.<br /><br />For myself, I'd nuance the option I'd take if I disagreed in this situation to this: "I don't get this decision, I don't like it; but it doesn't change my respect for MacArthur, and that also means there's likely to be some positive aspects I'm just not seeing."<br /><br />We call this "the benefit of the doubt." Someone who has earned it should get it.<br /><br />And if MacArthur hasn't earned it, then all leaders need to give up, go home, and crank up the video games.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-56065065928152331782012-02-23T06:35:41.014-06:002012-02-23T06:35:41.014-06:00jmb,
He doesn't do it with the ESV, NKJV, or ...jmb,<br /><br />He doesn't do it with the ESV, NKJV, or NASB, so why should it be different here? You need to be consistent if you're going to have a standard by which to judge the work. He wrote a book about English translations not using the word slave and plenty of people have mentioned the use of LORD in the place of Yahweh. So should we only preach, teach, and provide notes for Greek and Hebrew versions of the text? Do you think MacArthur's notes provide <br /><i>any</i> room for an egalitarian or feminist point of view?Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987985549747283669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-13503040164840537592012-02-23T06:25:14.934-06:002012-02-23T06:25:14.934-06:00Dan,
Thank you for your post. I am glad that you’v...Dan,<br />Thank you for your post. I am glad that you’ve given the option to respectfully disagree with Dr. MacArthur. I love him and consider him to be a man of utmost integrity. And my thoughts of Dr. MacArthur do NOT change because I do disagree with the decision to put out a MSBNIV version. (Nor do they change for Mr. Johnson whom I also greatly respect and appreciate; the same goes for all you gentlemen at Team Pyro).<br /><br />My fear is that because Dr. MacArthur’s name is now associated with the updated neutered version of the NIV that people will think that the version is fine in and of itself. We have to admit that there is brand loyalty and Dr. MacArthur is in a way a “brand name”. Those with the older version of the NIV might even switch to the new version just to get Dr. MacArthur’s notes. <br /><br />I also think of the potential confusion of looking at Dr. MacArthur’s notes that “correct” the translation. That has the very real potential of creating mistrust in the Word and putting more trust in a man. Even if the man were to be able to correct the translation it is the principle involved as to how we should view the Word (understanding that a translation is not infallible but that is another discussion).<br /><br />And there is the money issue – I fear that if Zondervan makes money on this endeavor it will encourage them to continue to put forth translations that “please” the culture. Zondervan is not owned by Christians and hence the ultimate business decisions at the top of the ladder are less likely to be made with the thought of honoring Christ.<br /><br />In my uneducated opinion, there are just too many drawbacks for Dr. MacArthur to work with such a translation. I would have hoped that those who wanted the scholarship of Dr. MacArthur would have switched to a different/better translation of the Word. I pray that God will use this situation in whatever way that brings Him the most glory.<br /><br />That opinion does not change my respect for the men at Grace Church who day in and day out remain faithful to preach and teach the Truth from God’s Word.<br /><br />Bev C.Old Paths Pilgrimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00982979593665607363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-86731531464623097572012-02-23T00:05:52.542-06:002012-02-23T00:05:52.542-06:00My initial reaction upon reading the announcement ...My initial reaction upon reading the announcement at Pyro was something like, "He going to do <i>what</i>? Really??"<br /><br />That is, until I read his explanation--and then it all made sense.<br /><br />Anyone who's heard Pastor John's sermons over a period of time may hear him say that his personal hero is the apostle Paul. And no wonder--Paul rejoiced whenever the gospel was preached, whether for false motive or true. Likewise, I think Pastor John rejoices over the spreading of the gospel, whether via sub-par or good translation. I don't question his motives at all--and greed is the last thing with which I'd accuse him. His thankfulness toward the Lord's grace should be evident to all who enjoys his preaching--anyone who accuses him for being greedy simply hasn't bothered to really listen to him or read his works.Susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08289347868497438542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-64380176844945297382012-02-22T20:50:58.910-06:002012-02-22T20:50:58.910-06:00Robert,
Every time I've seen the same notes i...Robert,<br /><br />Every time I've seen the same notes in different translations, the only difference I've seen is that they refer to the words of the translation. Otherwise the notes remain the same.<br /><br />As Dan indirectly implied (I think) in his 1:54 comment, it would be unlikely that MacArthur would point out every time he disagreed with the word choice in the TNIV. If he does do that, I will stand corrected.jmbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07164857192077648887noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-57825776519433355632012-02-22T19:09:27.849-06:002012-02-22T19:09:27.849-06:00Again, the post is not whether you disagree over t...Again, the post is not whether you disagree over the wisdom of MacArthur's decision to attach his study notes to the NIV 2011. The post is about certain assertions that MacArthur's motive for doing so is something other than what he said it was, more specifically, it was financially motivated.<br /><br />So if his decision was financially motivated, instead of what he actually said it was, then he is either a liar or he has fooled himself (and presumably the elders at GCC) with a self rationalization.<br /><br />I'm sorry, but you can play word games all you like but that's where you are when you make those assertions. And I find that accusation to be both presumptuous and defamatory. Unless you can provide some evidence other than general knowledge of the publishing business.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15285043747501470199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-7374749426010137452012-02-22T16:17:53.623-06:002012-02-22T16:17:53.623-06:00I don't know, Dan, I thought MacArthur was gre...I don't know, Dan, I thought MacArthur was greedy and veering from sound theology <a href="http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/NKJB/macarthur_study_bible.htm" rel="nofollow">the first time</a> he published a Study Bible two decades ago. :)Stephenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05657160848405432116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-56312190750072313812012-02-22T15:59:53.759-06:002012-02-22T15:59:53.759-06:00MacArthur disapproves of the TNIV, but I highly do...<i>MacArthur disapproves of the TNIV, but I highly doubt that his notes will specify all of his objections to it.</i><br /><br />So do you know for a fact what it is going to look like? Or are you just assuming? I left the Baylys a comment suggesting they write an open letter to MacArhtur with their concerns so that they have some other basis than assumptions based upon their own dealings with publishing companies. Because until somebody lays out all of the facts and we see things in print, that is all we have: assumptions.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987985549747283669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-78450046245045270702012-02-22T15:54:47.556-06:002012-02-22T15:54:47.556-06:00I'm chuckling at the thought of what the NIVDJ...I'm chuckling at the thought of what the NIVDJP would look like.<br /><br />You can judge by the notes in my BW9: "Once again, TNIV/NIV pluralizes to suit its agenda."<br /><br />That'd be one <i>thick</i> study Bible.<br /><br />(c:DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-15946618197708611492012-02-22T15:53:04.667-06:002012-02-22T15:53:04.667-06:00Dan,
You compared your sermon following that of t...Dan,<br /><br />You compared your sermon following that of the Catholic priest's with MacArthur's decision to let the TNIV use his notes, by saying:<br /><br />"Is this arguably like that? Bringing the same bonuses, and vulnerable to the same objections? Arguably, yes."<br /><br />With all due respect, I would argue no. You disapproved of what the priest said about Mary, and spoke the truth, specifically refuting him. MacArthur disapproves of the TNIV, but I highly doubt that his notes will specify all of his objections to it. <br /><br />I think we should steer clear of what we disapprove and not cooperate with it for the sake of some hypothetical "good" that will result. I realize that this is often easier said than done, but we should try to do it nevertheless.jmbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07164857192077648887noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-8090225373787973452012-02-22T15:05:23.855-06:002012-02-22T15:05:23.855-06:00No Freida, I thought otherwise because you didn...No Freida, I thought otherwise because you didn't actually interact with anything in the post. It's as if the post were titled "Fifty-seven reasons why translations should ditch LORD for 'Yahweh,'" and your comment was, "I think translations should keep using 'LORD' instead of 'Yahweh.'"<br /><br />And then challenged, you simply said, "Yeah, I read the post."DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-27763731816603139312012-02-22T14:35:51.243-06:002012-02-22T14:35:51.243-06:00This is the same John MacARthur who mailed out fre...This is the same John MacARthur who mailed out free copies of the ESVMSB to those on the Grace to You subscription list. It is free to get on the list and every month they send free resources (books/CDs). Definitely sounds like finances are impacting his decisions.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987985549747283669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-66739573131523253622012-02-22T14:33:54.531-06:002012-02-22T14:33:54.531-06:00Tim writes,
Also, I never said John's motive w...Tim writes,<br /><i>Also, I never said John's motive was greed. What I said is that money entered into the decision.</i><br /><br />Can you elaborate on that clarification? How exactly did "money enter into the decision?" I happen to know a little bit about this, and to my knowledge, insisting money entered into it is just flat out ignorant of the facts.<br /><br />And I say that as someone who likes you.Fred Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16025967176465685306noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-37453722519645968472012-02-22T14:13:33.490-06:002012-02-22T14:13:33.490-06:00So let me clarify what I mean: "hate" in...So let me clarify what I mean: "hate" in the sense that Jesus says He hates the deeds of the Nicolaitans. I don't mean it in the po-mo sense, in some existentialist sense of a mere visceral reaction, like the way I feel about squash or Glee. I am not meaning to trivialize Tim's opposition to translations like the NIV - which he has explained well and at length - by implying that it's that kind of merely emotional reaction.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.com