tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post6798069017322313908..comments2024-03-01T21:01:15.174-06:00Comments on Biblical Christianity: Did Jesus sweat drops of blood as He prayed in the Garden?DJPhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-29417316553824781672015-10-20T08:50:28.161-05:002015-10-20T08:50:28.161-05:00I agree that Luke uses a simile to describe the sw...I agree that Luke uses a simile to describe the sweat from the anguish He was enduring. Blood is under the pressure of a pump, therefore it's usually produces a gushing effect. I understand there is a condition where one could actually sweat blood, but Luke chose to mention the sweat was "like" drops of blood.mehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11964295447174416289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-10682067174034342982014-10-03T12:26:21.401-05:002014-10-03T12:26:21.401-05:00A good blog, and like yourself have reservations a...A good blog, and like yourself have reservations about a textually insecure concept. Agreeing that Jesus did not sweat blood, IMO Donald Miller’s interpretation of ὡσει (bloody sweat) remains, like your, a possible. I discount your discount of that phenomenon. "I Stand Amazed in the Presence" was written by (a) Gabriel, but on a number of counts I’d reject it, and appreciate Terry Rayburn’s point that too often we run with whatever we pick up: 1 Ths.5:21.<br />Luke or later scribe clearly said, not blood. I think Rm.5:9f. makes it fairly clear that, as you said, it was not sacrificial bleeding in Gethsemane. I think we too often speak of Jesus’ blood. Even as it puzzled the ancient Romans, how many nowadays think we’re Buffy huggers, drinking his blood (metaphor, not simile)? Death can be symbolised by blood, going back to Lv.17:11: metonymy. It’s his death, not his small amount of bleeding before death, which somehow saved us.SHHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11712354714036954282noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-71398445252594469162014-09-15T11:47:16.832-05:002014-09-15T11:47:16.832-05:00Dan,
In addition to your actual exegetical point...Dan, <br /><br />In addition to your actual exegetical point (which I agree with, despite Donald Miller N.D.'s interesting comparison with Hebrews -- Donald is apparently a Seventh Day Adventist, and therefore exegetically challenged to start with, IMHO), I can't help but think how often Bible teachers pass on things they've heard from other Bible teachers, without studying or verifying the thing.<br /><br />(Understandable, by the way, since it's often reputable preachers whom they've heard it from -- this is not really a criticism).<br /><br />An example is the oft-taught idea that agape is a sort of non-human "God's kind of love", as opposed to the other forms of love made popular by C.S. Lewis. <br /><br />(Agape is not only used "secularly" in Scripture, but in non-biblical Greek writings.)<br /><br />Don Carson makes this and many other wonderful points in his "Exegetical Fallacies", a favorite book of mine.Terry Rayburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00722632954331009294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-47268226766518654042013-07-30T11:23:38.552-05:002013-07-30T11:23:38.552-05:00Thanks for the post. Makes sense and seems to anti...Thanks for the post. Makes sense and seems to anticipate the contrary comments.<br /><br />Question about the "dove" thing though. Isn't is possible that the Holy Spirit DESCENDED like a dove rather than TOOK BODILY FORM like a dove?Michael Coughlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01151414777657994736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-30378815427281541472012-05-22T12:01:37.234-05:002012-05-22T12:01:37.234-05:00I finally found someone that noticed the word &quo...I finally found someone that noticed the word "like" in the verse. Thank you so much for the relief. Now if someone will only be so kind as to give Dr. Frederick Zugibe english lessons. Thanks again.FilaBrasileiro05https://www.blogger.com/profile/02351386725487498285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-85765574367244365982012-04-15T16:17:55.261-05:002012-04-15T16:17:55.261-05:00Cool to see the truth posted!Cool to see the truth posted!Darryl Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16871152128509055434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-27502856098882782382010-10-07T17:40:54.984-05:002010-10-07T17:40:54.984-05:00Striving against sin and paying the price for sin ...Striving against sin and paying the price for sin are two different things. I believe Paul was taking up the thread Dr. Luke laid down when he said in Hebrews 12:4, “Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.” In the Garden, Jesus was struggling under the weight of our sins, of every sin that had ever been committed or would be yet. He felt the awful weight of each and every one of them and the eternal separation such sins will cause between the sinner and God, and that makes His condition, according to the only doctor amongst Christ’s followers, of hemohydrosis not only plausible but inevitable. “Like great drops of blood,” shows Luke’s attention to medical detail. It wasn’t blood and blood alone, it was a dilute, caused by the bursting capillaries surrounding the sweat glands brought about by a sudden reversal of the superhuman stress Christ felt relieved when the angel came and ministered to Him. It is a classic case of hemohydrosis. Your premise is well taken, but to in any way lessen the struggle Christ went through in the Garden would release us from the reality of “resisting unto blood striving against sin” and accept the notion of cheap grace. Christ’s struggle must be our struggle, but in Him, it is a “good fight of faith.”Donald Miller N.D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02847656514985013552noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-29508036624307187852010-04-04T16:39:23.190-05:002010-04-04T16:39:23.190-05:00Oh Tim, I wouldn't say that at all. We know Je...Oh Tim, I wouldn't say that at all. We know Jesus started bleeding well before the Crucifixion — the beatings, the whipping, the crown of thorns.<br /><br />It's simply a matter of the text not supporting that interpretation. Those Christians who seemingly overlook the "as if" take it as indicating what a terrific struggle Jesus had in His prayer in the Garden — which is just how I take it as well.<br /><br />No great doctrine hangs on it.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-56991640189655647142010-04-04T12:36:48.269-05:002010-04-04T12:36:48.269-05:00Dan great post...
Why is Luke the only person to m...Dan great post...<br />Why is Luke the only person to mention this...Well he's a doctor and he refers things to his field...AS blood....the other night i was working on my car and sweating profusely....you could hear my sweat hitting the ground...my son ask "dad are you bleeding"....dont you think if you seen someone sweating blood you would have mentioned it due to the rareness...wouldnt his clothes have been stained...But the best argument to me is that the whole Bible teaches us not to worry or stress or take thought of our life...so if Jesus sweated blood wouldnt that be a sin...and He could not have been that perfect lamb without spot or blemish...I believe the teachings of Jesus sweating blood is blasphemy and taking the focus off of his resurrection which is what gives us Eternal Life....now who would want to do that.....hmmmmm SATANTimJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07974490076712769444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-1898448553164564642010-04-03T09:45:21.932-05:002010-04-03T09:45:21.932-05:00And one of those voices(MacArthur) correlates Luke...And one of those voices(MacArthur) correlates Luke 22:44 with Matthew 26:38, Mark 14:34, & Hebrews 12:3,4. Rolling up the sleeves, Dan ~ thanks for this post! :-)J♥Yce Burrowshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14974221921014132431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-12551745241694260462010-04-03T09:23:07.297-05:002010-04-03T09:23:07.297-05:00We agree on the profusion though easy for me to un...We agree on the profusion though easy for me to understand great drops of sweat from a work perspective. Yup...great drops ~ <i>thrombos</i>. http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=22&v=1&t=KJV#conc/44 :-) Promise to understand the <i>hosei</i> use in Luke amidst so many commentary voices...as I do "get it" in Rev. 1:14 ~ and elsewhere.J♥Yce Burrowshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14974221921014132431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-50233613101727468122010-04-03T02:07:04.202-05:002010-04-03T02:07:04.202-05:00Dan, it sounds to me like CR is taking the phrase ...Dan, it sounds to me like CR is taking the phrase to mean "like a dove [would]"; that is, if I heard him correctly. (Do correct me if I'm wrong, CR.) If that were the case, then it wouldn't mean resembling a dove.Susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08289347868497438542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-54598336785631321062010-04-02T07:46:06.691-05:002010-04-02T07:46:06.691-05:00Thanks for this, Dan. That word "like" h...Thanks for this, Dan. That word "like" has always glared at me, and so I've never actually been a strong proponent of the "sweating great drops of blood" position. Again, not that he couldn't....<br /><br />Spurgeon's quote kinda bothers me, though. When he says "weight of sin" and not "impending weight of sin" it makes me squirm that he saw the atonement at least beginning there. <br /><br />I'm not otherwise going to think on this as it relates to Spurgeon again, but I am eventually going to preach through Luke (after 1-2 Timothy [yeah]).<br /><br />So thanks for this post.<br /><br />-Kirby<br /><br />ps: I've almost finished The D-C Rift by Magnum.Kirbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04036811702165687007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-76263371932370648552010-04-02T06:47:50.420-05:002010-04-02T06:47:50.420-05:00To me, Luke is clear:
"and the Holy Spirit d...To me, Luke is clear:<br /><br />"and the Holy Spirit descended on him <b>in bodily form, like a dove</b>; and a voice came from heaven, 'You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased'" (Luke 3:22).<br /><br />Don't know how he could say more clearly that it was a bodily, visible appearance resembling a dove. I'm open to correction, but that's the natural force of the words, to me. Since He did it, evidently it does not violate the commandment against worship. It isn't the first time a person of the Trinity took on some visible form (Exodus 24:10).DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-49322309139256989792010-04-02T00:28:00.667-05:002010-04-02T00:28:00.667-05:00Al beat me to it. This is a major piece of Mormon ...Al beat me to it. This is a <i>major</i> piece of Mormon doctrine. Whatever they believe about the atonement, they believe was accomplished in the Garden of Gethsemane, not the cross.<br /><br />Yet one more way Mormonism delicately and insidiously distorts the gospel...<br /><br />And thinking about CR's point about the same grammatical structure around the description of the Holy Spirit coming upon Jesus, I've always wondered if the description had more to do with the <i>manner</i> of the Holy Spirit's descent, like a bird coming to land on the earth...don't know for sure of course...Rachael Starkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10781158372237369417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-67942618091494804562010-04-01T22:52:29.648-05:002010-04-01T22:52:29.648-05:00The passage in Luke can either be taken as the Spi...The passage in Luke can either be taken as the Spirit had a bodily appearance that descended like a dove or the Spirit had a bodily appearance the resembled a dove which descended. I would prefer the first interpretation to match the other gospels.Mike Erich the Mad Theologianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04682504413797395786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-60488989269227638002010-04-01T20:43:20.821-05:002010-04-01T20:43:20.821-05:00Also this:
"To begin to meet the demands of ...Also this:<br /><br />"To begin to meet the demands of the Atonement, the sinless Christ went into the Garden of Gethsemane, as Elder Whitney saw in his dream, there to bear the agony of soul only He could bear. He “began to be sore amazed and to be very heavy,” saying to Peter, James, and John, “My soul is exceeding sorrowful, unto death.”15 Why? Because He suffered “the pains of all men, yea, the pains of every living creature, both men, women, and children, who belong to the family of Adam.”16 He experienced “temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great [was] his anguish.”17<br /><br />Through this suffering, Jesus redeemed the souls of all men, women, and children “that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities.”18 In doing so, Christ “descended below all things”—including every kind of sickness, infirmity, and dark despair experienced by every mortal being—in order that He might “comprehend all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth.”19"<br /><br />From <a href="http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng/his-life-and-teachings/articles/the-atonement-of-jesus-christ%22" rel="nofollow"> Some Dream Some Guy Had.</a>Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02659402617723892967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-85370687240372873922010-04-01T20:39:30.051-05:002010-04-01T20:39:30.051-05:00Dan,
The LDS folks ascribe atoning work to the b...Dan, <br /><br />The LDS folks ascribe atoning work to the blood shed in the Garden. For example:<br /><br />"[Jesus Christ] is the Light of the Atonement fulfilled in the Garden of Gethsemane and on Golgotha, who took upon Himself the sins of the world, that all mankind may obtain eternal salvation. He is the Light of the empty tomb. . . . He is my Light, my Redeemer, my Savior--and yours."<br /><br />Robert D. Hales, "Out of Darkness into His Marvelous Light," Ensign, May 2002, 71–72Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02659402617723892967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-31105905704850641262010-04-01T16:23:35.196-05:002010-04-01T16:23:35.196-05:00Trogdor,
Whatever bodily form the Spirit came dow...Trogdor,<br /><br />Whatever bodily form the Spirit came down as, for sure, it did not assume the bodily form of a dove (naturally, since the Lord was so adamant about us not worshipping idols or graven images).CRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01912897040503058967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-89608836978806130732010-04-01T15:42:17.310-05:002010-04-01T15:42:17.310-05:00On the dove issue, Luke's account is translate...On the dove issue, Luke's account is translated <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%203:21-22&version=ESV;NIV;NASB;KJV;TR1894" rel="nofollow">pretty consistently</a> into English as "the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove". Does that make it better to picture him in a bodily form like a dove?<br /><br />I don't know the Greek well enough to tell if there's something else there that's not being conveyed, so it's attached for convenience for someone who does. Have fun.trogdorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452996348717802065noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-91108985795631050452010-04-01T15:16:10.712-05:002010-04-01T15:16:10.712-05:00CR,
I'm having trouble understanding why you ...CR,<br /><br />I'm having trouble understanding why you would say that. Is it an aversion to iconography? John wrote that the Spirit descended like a dove, did he not? Why is it okay to use that simile in words but not in picture? What would the picture express that the words would not?Brad Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00197301845256854051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-44663634990108099072010-04-01T13:49:32.311-05:002010-04-01T13:49:32.311-05:00ὡσεὶ merely means "as." I wouldn't ...ὡσεὶ merely means "as." I wouldn't be comfortable assigning it more meaning than that. With that said I agree that in this context it clearly means like blood.<br />My problem with your post is that you question the veracity of this verse. Don't give into the supposed problems with it. Check our Burgon's "Revision Revised."<br />This verse was often quoted by Church Fathers.Matthew Ervinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00625690952653844334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-38804062833325960482010-04-01T12:23:45.394-05:002010-04-01T12:23:45.394-05:00Reading Brad's comment, I had to go there... w...Reading Brad's comment, I had to go there... why not say he decended like a buzzard?<br /><br />Interesting how the imagery changes that picture, and the connotations. ;)Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06734845463331170748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-4306167433830301982010-04-01T12:06:53.764-05:002010-04-01T12:06:53.764-05:00Brad,
In my opinion, you could no more draw the H...Brad,<br /><br />In my opinion, you could no more draw the Holy Spirit as dove anymore than one can draw Jesus sweating with real blood. The Holy Spirit did not descend as a dove Jesus did not sweat blood if I am to understand the writers correctly.CRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01912897040503058967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-1850945953137030602010-04-01T12:00:54.512-05:002010-04-01T12:00:54.512-05:00Dan,
Your initial sentence struck me deeply:
&qu...Dan,<br /><br />Your initial sentence struck me deeply:<br /><br />"My heart is in the pulpit, even when the rest of me doesn't have that blessing."<br /><br />My heart goes out to you brother, it must be very hard to contain the fire within.<br /><br />May our Lord bless you and grant you the opportunity and pleasure in His time.Pedrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04388410433686445227noreply@blogger.com