tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post7395071885491946008..comments2024-03-01T21:01:15.174-06:00Comments on Biblical Christianity: From the Chan "taking a step of faith" metaDJPhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-9893219848701756722010-05-02T10:07:22.954-05:002010-05-02T10:07:22.954-05:00Well, Bobby, or "recreated," or whatever...Well, Bobby, or "recreated," or whatever alias you are today, since your comment isn't much more than an "is not," I'll counter with an "is so," and point to the scores of posts Phil, Frank, others and I have written on the subject.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-41541325303560142982010-05-02T01:11:42.721-05:002010-05-02T01:11:42.721-05:00Anyone beginning a comment with G'day and hail...Anyone beginning a comment with G'day and hailing from across the Pacific would be an Australian (like me!) ;) <br /><br />I'm Pentecostal and go to an Anglican Theological College - so I guess that makes me Anglicostal? Kevin de Young's book 'Just Do Something' really changed my theology and I notice many people use "God said" as an easy way out. I interviewed him on my blog. But that's beside the point.<br /><br />There are many people at my pentecostal charismatic church who think along the lines of 'just do something' and others who go through life based on feelings - but we all fellowship together. <br /><br />"The Pentecostal /charismatic movement is one of the most guilt inducing, burdensome and theologically anemic expressions of modern Christianity. Pentecostals are probably allergic to this blog, but for any drive-by’s, take heed." <br /><br />Thus I find this paragraph rather hurtful. Maybe because my church is little bit more laneway coffee shop rather than starbucks when it comes to it's practices and I don't like it being pigeon holed.<br /><br />This blogging thing is so intense. I have just got into it and just learning who doesn't like who and where the battle lines are and what they are over. It's all so intense...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-28192400243695781082010-05-01T21:23:25.808-05:002010-05-01T21:23:25.808-05:00I never said we should seek for them, you assumed ...I never said we should <em>seek</em> for them, you assumed that. That's what "charismatics" do, "seek" for signs and wonders; which is why Jesus wouldn't do them (Jn 2) in some instances.<br /><br />That's why I said you should read "The Heavenly Man."<br /><br />Azusa is an absolute abuse and sensationalistic rendention of Acts; wherein they try to replicate in a normatized way the signs and wonders that were at play in the early church. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm just afraid because of pentecostalism (starting in its American form at Azusa --- although there have always been "mystics"), that folks throw the baby out with the bath water and believe that God cannot or does not work in ways like He did in Acts for the sake of the Gospel.<br /><br />I find the cessationist arguements exceedingly weak, exegetically; and pretty much built upon some artificial exegesis (esp. I Cor 13). <br /><br />My point is that the sheep know their Shepherd's voice; and that voice never contradicts or strays from the Scripture, but that there is a voice . . . folks just need to be quiet long enough (in prayer) to hear it.<br /><br />The comment you provide here from a charismatic only reflects the excesses of charismania; which is not what I'm referring to. I don't see why what Chan is doing is being construed in those terms, at all. There are all kinds of examples in scripture where folks "step out in faith." His decision does not sound rash, and sounds prayerfully considered and "blessed" by the elders in His church.<br /><br />You put this post in the category of "Charismatic," which is why I thought of Azusa; along with the context I provide above. We don't have charismatics in the way we do in America w/o Azusa.Bobby Growhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06831009618873548948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-88788422945780380852010-05-01T18:46:16.135-05:002010-05-01T18:46:16.135-05:00Never really gotten the "Sybil" thing.
...Never really gotten the "Sybil" thing.<br /><br />Why <i>should</i> we seek for, expect, or even entertain the possibility of them?<br /><br />How is Azusa Street unrepresentative?DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-9328428327656526602010-05-01T16:39:01.928-05:002010-05-01T16:39:01.928-05:00Is it true that God cannot speak by way of visions...Is it true that God cannot speak by way of visions, dreams, or words? When did this cease?<br /><br />It seems to me that Azusa has ruined anything in this realm (or Finney) . . . or TBN. The fact that God speaks to people's hearts is clear. The question isn't whether He speaks, but whether <em>what</em> He speaks is IN or OUTside His already revealed Word. <br /><br /><br />The fact that He speaks, "to people's hearts," is a given; and then the objective criteria is whether or not what He speaks is from His "Word" (or contradicts it) or not. <br /><br />I think part of the problem is that we live in the 'West', where materialism is the paradigm --- even for the church. In contrast to this part of the church there are plenty, like in the underground in China, who are starving for the Scriptures; and who need God in ways that we apparently don't. Just read "The Heavenly Man," the story of <em>Brother Christian Yun</em>. I suppose you can either believe that he's a liar (like those on TBN), or that he's telling the truth (I choose the latter).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-54053037528121349472010-05-01T16:37:39.038-05:002010-05-01T16:37:39.038-05:00Is it true that God cannot speak by way of visions...Is it true that God cannot speak by way of visions, dreams, or words? When did this cease?<br /><br />It seems to me that Azusa has ruined anything in this realm (or Finney) . . . or TBN. The fact that God speaks to people's hearts is clear. The question isn't whether He speaks, but whether <em>what</em> He speaks is IN or OUTside His already revealed Word. <br /><br /><br />The fact that He speaks, "to people's hearts," is a given; and then the objective criteria is whether or not what He speaks is from His "Word" (or contradicts it) or not. <br /><br />I think part of the problem is that we live in the 'West', where materialism is the paradigm --- even for the church. In contrast to this part of the church there are plenty, like in the underground in China, who are starving for the Scriptures; and who need God in ways that we apparently don't. Just read "The Heavenly Man," the story of <em>Brother Christian Yun</em>. I suppose you can either believe that he's a liar (like those on TBN), or that he's telling the truth (I choose the latter).Bobby Growhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06831009618873548948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-29812738914240055432010-05-01T16:36:19.619-05:002010-05-01T16:36:19.619-05:00Is it true that God cannot speak by way of visions...Is it true that God cannot speak by way of visions, dreams, or words? When did this cease?<br /><br />It seems to me that Azusa has ruined anything in this realm (or Finney) . . . or TBN. The fact that God speaks to people's hearts is clear. The question isn't whether He speaks, but whether <em>what</em> He speaks is IN or OUTside His already revealed Word. <br /><br /><br />The fact that He speaks, "to people's hearts," is a given; and then the objective criteria is whether or not what He speaks is from His "Word" (or contradicts it) or not. <br /><br />I think part of the problem is that we live in the 'West', where materialism is the paradigm --- even for the church. In contrast to this part of the church there are plenty, like in the underground in China, who are starving for the Scriptures; and who need God in ways that we apparently don't. Just read "The Heavenly Man," the story of <em>Brother Christian Yun</em>. I suppose you can either believe that he's a liar (like those on TBN), or that he's telling the truth (I choose the latter).Bobby Growhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06831009618873548948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-50192163296861064002010-04-30T16:13:13.945-05:002010-04-30T16:13:13.945-05:00Joey
Good to see you. I haven't seen you po...Joey <br /><br />Good to see you. I haven't seen you posting to those blogs in a bit. <br /><br />How are things in your dad's SGM Church especially recently with the one pastor leaving? <br /><br />SteveStevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01527099698623190200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-14344025781795889132010-04-30T14:42:08.253-05:002010-04-30T14:42:08.253-05:00Barbara,
Thanks so much for your guidance on Ital...Barbara,<br /><br />Thanks <b>so</b> much for your guidance on Italician. I'm maybe not <i>fluent</i> yet, but you've got me off and running.<br /><br />[Tears of joy and gratitude obviously accompany the above!]<br /><br />Blessings,<br />AFamily Blogshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18139302128402850028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-90603610215318079682010-04-30T08:55:29.281-05:002010-04-30T08:55:29.281-05:00OK, we tied. Now we have point, counterpoint, and ...OK, we tied. Now we have point, counterpoint, and we're done.<br /><br />Don't test me. You'll be mad at me, and that makes me sad.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-32727678608572408272010-04-30T08:51:20.498-05:002010-04-30T08:51:20.498-05:00Steve (and anyone else), you got your link in, whi...Steve (and anyone else), you got your link in, which is a stretch of my usual policy as it is. Let's leave it there. If anyone wants to, he can look at it and determine whether it is substantial or just slander and a personal hobby-horse. But this post/meta won't become a referendum on that.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-89820274289274857252010-04-30T08:48:40.743-05:002010-04-30T08:48:40.743-05:00I see I responded to a deleted post...thanks DanI see I responded to a deleted post...thanks DanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-40498567079220721742010-04-30T08:48:40.742-05:002010-04-30T08:48:40.742-05:00I already emailed Dan about this but I guess I'...I already emailed Dan about this but I guess I'll comment, though I am not sure this site is the place to get into this.<br /><br />If you go to Steve's own blog, which is one page...you will see he is interested in exploring the "dark side of calvinism."<br /><br />If you go to the survivors site (which I don't recommend doing) you will see that the operators of the blog are the ones that declined SGM's request to enter into conflict resolution that Ken Sande of the peacemakers offered to be involved with. And yes...mos tthe folks in SGM would consider leaving a church and then publicly bashing your pastors on the internet to be slander. <br /><br />My point is, SGM leadership is aware of the complaints and has attempted whenever possible to address the concerns...but since most of the posting is anonymous and there seems to be no desire for actual resolution the sites continue to exist.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-19565196318381742572010-04-30T08:28:51.566-05:002010-04-30T08:28:51.566-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01527099698623190200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-30637923817461380402010-04-30T06:50:22.913-05:002010-04-30T06:50:22.913-05:00DJP
thanks for sharing this thread...quite an &qu...DJP<br /><br />thanks for sharing this thread...quite an "article."<br /><br />Steve<br /><br />Someone out there doesn't like SGM? Wow...Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17885795712009955563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-17358440580694922102010-04-29T21:22:10.810-05:002010-04-29T21:22:10.810-05:00And hey, it's from a talk he gave in my hometo...And hey, it's from a talk he gave in my hometown! Thanks, Lee!Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-70325252821877947382010-04-29T20:31:18.188-05:002010-04-29T20:31:18.188-05:00"Sproul's work aside (thanks, JMB), pneum..."Sproul's work aside (thanks, JMB), pneumatology seems to be the neglected ugly duckling of reformed theology."<br /><br />There's a talk by Rev. Danny Hyde I'm trying to find on "Pentecost Christians in an Age of Pentecostalism" that addresses this. <br /><br />If I understand it, classically Ref. types see the working of the Spirit in more mundane, ordinary and "churchy" things, like preaching, Lord's Supper and baptism. "Ordinary means." <br /><br />Anybody who's looking for flashy stuff to see the work of the Spirit isn't going to know what to make of that.<br /><br />Ah, here we go. This should be it: http://www.oceansideurc.org/journal/2007/11/6/being-a-pentecostal-church-in-an-age-of-pentecostalism.html. And this is a guy who came out of a Pentecostal background.lee n. fieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01652025469454858807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-61019149289831386072010-04-29T18:58:05.465-05:002010-04-29T18:58:05.465-05:00Dan:
Good points.
And we do know a lot of the Ho...Dan:<br /><br />Good points.<br /><br />And we do know a lot of the Holy Spirit, since His tangible work is all around us, in a way that is more immediately perceptible to us than that of the Father or the Son:<br /><br />* In His authorship and illumination of Scripture;<br />* In the gathering together of believers in the Church;<br />* In the proclamation and hearing of the Word of God;<br />* In the fulfilling of the Great Commission;<br />* In the testimonies of those who have come to saving faith in Jesus Christ;<br />* In our prayers.<br /><br />And in all these things, it is as you say: the Holy Spirit is actively at work, to glorify Jesus Christ, and the Father through the Son.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-2741265780397378822010-04-29T18:25:45.802-05:002010-04-29T18:25:45.802-05:00I'm not sure how true or fair that is, Stefan,...I'm not sure how true or fair that is, Stefan, though there's no doubt error always steps in to fill lacks of truth.<br /><br />Owen wrote a book on the Spirit, though I'm not as impressed by it as others are. So did Kuyper - ditto. He's discussed in theologies and as parts of books.<br /><br />But isn't there something to His mystery? Isn't it by design? <a href="http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2006/12/holy-spirit-is-not-failed-ed-mcmahon.html" rel="nofollow">I argued that He's like a really good MC</a>, not training the spotlight on Himself, but on Christ. I can't think that a movement that styles itself as being all about Him is actually pleasing to Him, since He's all about Christ.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-5437375487166701142010-04-29T18:16:13.817-05:002010-04-29T18:16:13.817-05:00Sproul's work aside (thanks, JMB), pneumatolog...Sproul's work aside (thanks, JMB), pneumatology seems to be the neglected ugly duckling of reformed theology.<br /><br />What I mean to say that there are scads of books, papers, articles, etc. on soteriology, ecclesiology, eschatology, baptism, PSA, complementarianism, teleology, the authority and sufficiency of Scripture, etc., etc., etc., but comparatively little is written or taught on the Holy Spirit (even though He works in a lot of these areas!).<br /><br />Is it possible that the lack of a clear articulation of pneumatology from a reformed perspective is what has helped to create the void that charismaticism has rushed in to fill?Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-34441075814644832562010-04-29T17:49:30.552-05:002010-04-29T17:49:30.552-05:00Andrew..
I am so proud of you!
*wipes a single t...Andrew..<br /><br />I am <i>so</i> <b>proud</b> of you!<br /><br />*wipes a single tear*<br /><br />;)Barbarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16604068110452745043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-66822076763298961762010-04-29T17:49:18.774-05:002010-04-29T17:49:18.774-05:00...which they never, ever literally do....which they never, ever literally do.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-80496874466781703602010-04-29T17:45:19.000-05:002010-04-29T17:45:19.000-05:00Of course it's possible test subjective "...Of course it's possible test subjective "leadings." All you gotta do is put out a fleece and see if it's wet in the morning...Mike Westfallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06944727980772754938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-43331958885165562010-04-29T17:21:31.536-05:002010-04-29T17:21:31.536-05:00Everyday Mommy© - I recommend "The Mystery Of...Everyday Mommy© - I recommend "The Mystery Of The Holy Spirit," by R.C. Sproul.jmbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07164857192077648887noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-14106655898922486382010-04-29T17:05:53.072-05:002010-04-29T17:05:53.072-05:00I can't believe I have to write this, but Jack...I can't believe I have to write this, but Jackie Chan...is a dude. Kind of a manly dude at that. The joke is about having the same last name. <br /><br />See, I got it because when I was teaching Shanghai Noon had just come out and all the kids wanted to call me Mr. Jackie Chan-tryTom Chantryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02485908616177111150noreply@blogger.com