tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post8062902236409852620..comments2024-03-01T21:01:15.174-06:00Comments on Biblical Christianity: Hither and thither 7/16/10DJPhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comBlogger87125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-53918809973469630512010-07-21T12:01:45.863-05:002010-07-21T12:01:45.863-05:00Hi Paula,
Unconnected and uninvolved people are c...Hi Paula,<br /><br />Unconnected and uninvolved people are consistently exhorted to get connected and to get involved.<br /> <br />Regarding discipline, the process basically comes from Matthew 18. One difference, perhaps, in what you are thinking of is that "tell it to the church" doesn't necessitate taking the process before the entire body. This is more in-line with John Wesley's notes on the Matthew 18:17 which says, "Tell it to the elders of the Church - Lay the whole matter open before those who watch over yours and his soul."<br /><br />A quick search reveals such an interpretation can be supported by Matthew Henry, Adam Clarke, and John Calvin (the latter suggesting the model of the Jewish Sanhedrim was the proper understanding of "the church" in this context).<br /><br />I'm not saying this is the definitive way to implement Matthew 18's guidelines, just that it isn't a new or unique concept.Denishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03978034888390591496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-60676402636076145572010-07-20T19:59:22.192-05:002010-07-20T19:59:22.192-05:00@ Denis....I'd still love to hear what you do ...@ Denis....I'd still love to hear what you do about church discipline and how you handle all the attenders who are merely spectators and have no <em>real</em> connection with the church (though they may be out in the community representing themselves as being connected with the church). <br /><br />(full disclosure: I was a member of a 7000+ member multi-site church for almost 20 years)Paula Bolyardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05567777774272590296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-1839996942487372972010-07-20T14:08:31.319-05:002010-07-20T14:08:31.319-05:00Sorry for going back to a previous point, but did ...Sorry for going back to a previous point, but did we firmly establish how to identify when a church was getting to big? <br /><br />Was I correct in my summarization earlier that a church becomes too large when it "has more members than one pastor can personally and individually minister to on a regular and consistent basis"?Denishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03978034888390591496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-34823801186941928072010-07-20T13:35:12.063-05:002010-07-20T13:35:12.063-05:00Absolutely, preach the Gospel, bring folks in. The...Absolutely, preach the Gospel, bring folks in. Then when you start getting too big (as it sounds happened long ago in your church), tap one of the dozens of men longing to pastor a church, send them off together and fund a plant.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-49204012076945643342010-07-20T13:20:16.914-05:002010-07-20T13:20:16.914-05:00I don't think this is a strawman, I've spo...I don't think this is a strawman, I've spoken with people who either have been or are in churches which have some of the very problems I described. It’s not healthy, but it exists. <br /><br />And, no, it isn't my intention to say that small = bad or that it is somehow indicative of God's judgment on the church. As I said earlier on, I just think that there are strengths and weakness that need to be understood for both the small and the large.<br /><br />I do, however, have a hard time understanding how the "supermarket" scenario you described has bearing on bringing unbelievers come new-born Christians, into the fold; I can see how it might affect existing Christians who are in a "shopping" mode, but perhaps I am just missing something. That said, I know several people (good friends) who, in choosing churches for their family, have not chosen our church so I'm guessing we aren't everything to everyone.<br /><br />Also, while having a diverse set of ministries seems to be a big drawback in your books, please grant us some benefit of the doubt in at least some of these areas. For example, we are (as far as I understand) the only churches in our area which can offer real ministry and care to people with significant physical and mental disabilities and their families; something often overlooked by most of the church at large. I grant you, we aren't perfect in all our attempts, but we are trying to support people based on their needs. <br /><br />You see a church full of people who walk in and "reach and take", I experience a church full of people who reach out and give.<br /><br />I get that you think large churches are a bad idea, but talking like we are somehow actively destroying Jesus' real churches seems like quite the hyperbolic stretch. <br /><br />Finally, I have no such delusion that I would budge you on anything. I just wanted to flesh out the arguments here so I can understand them better and, perhaps, soften some of the attacks directed against my church, my pastors and my fellow believers and servants whom I all love.Denishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03978034888390591496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-71753318627432335602010-07-20T13:19:39.669-05:002010-07-20T13:19:39.669-05:00I don't think this is a strawman, I've spo...I don't think this is a strawman, I've spoken with people who either have been or are in churches which have some of the very problems I described. It’s not healthy, but it exists. <br /><br />And, no, it isn't my intention to say that small = bad or that it is somehow indicative of God's judgment on the church. As I said earlier on, I just think that there are strengths and weakness that need to be understood for both the small and the large.<br /><br />I do, however, have a hard time understanding how the "supermarket" scenario you described has bearing on bringing unbelievers come new-born Christians, into the fold; I can see how it might affect existing Christians who are in a "shopping" mode, but perhaps I am just missing something. That said, I know several people (good friends) who, in choosing churches for their family, have not chosen our church so I'm guessing we aren't everything to everyone.<br /><br />Also, while having a diverse set of ministries seems to be a big drawback in your books, please grant us some benefit of the doubt in at least some of these areas. For example, we are (as far as I understand) the only churches in our area which can offer real ministry and care to people with significant physical and mental disabilities and their families; something often overlooked by most of the church at large. I grant you, we aren't perfect in all our attempts, but we are trying to support people based on their needs. <br /><br />You see a church full of people who walk in and "reach and take", I experience a church full of people who reach out and give.<br /><br />I get that you think large churches are a bad idea, but talking like we are somehow actively destroying Jesus' real churches seems like quite the hyperbolic stretch. <br /><br />Finally, I have no such delusion that I would budge you on anything. I just wanted to flesh out the arguments here so I can understand them better and, perhaps, soften some of the attacks directed against my church, my pastors and my fellow believers and servants whom I all love.Denishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03978034888390591496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-26924478083136952052010-07-20T13:18:29.229-05:002010-07-20T13:18:29.229-05:00I don't think this is a strawman, I've spo...I don't think this is a strawman, I've spoken with people who either have been or are in churches which have some of the very problems I described. It’s not healthy, but it exists. <br /><br />And, no, it isn't my intention to say that small = bad or that it is somehow indicative of God's judgment on the church. As I said earlier on, I just think that there are strengths and weakness that need to be understood for both the small and the large.<br /><br />I do, however, have a hard time understanding how the "supermarket" scenario you described has bearing on bringing unbelievers come new-born Christians, into the fold; I can see how it might affect existing Christians who are in a "shopping" mode, but perhaps I am just missing something. That said, I know several people (good friends) who, in choosing churches for their family, have not chosen our church so I'm guessing we aren't everything to everyone.<br /><br />Also, while having a diverse set of ministries seems to be a big drawback in your books, please grant us some benefit of the doubt in at least some of these areas. For example, we are (as far as I understand) the only churches in our area which can offer real ministry and care to people with significant physical and mental disabilities and their families; something often overlooked by most of the church at large. I grant you, we aren't perfect in all our attempts, but we are trying to support people based on their needs. <br /><br />You see a church full of people who walk in and "reach and take", I experience a church full of people who reach out and give.<br /><br />I get that you think large churches are a bad idea, but talking like we are somehow actively destroying Jesus' real churches seems like quite the hyperbolic stretch. <br /><br />Finally, I have no such delusion that I would budge you on anything. I just wanted to flesh out the arguments here so I can understand them better and, perhaps, soften some of the attacks directed against my church, my pastors and my fellow believers and servants whom I all love.Denishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03978034888390591496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-222854812940793452010-07-20T12:33:08.672-05:002010-07-20T12:33:08.672-05:00I have yet to attend (or pastor) a small church th...I have yet to attend (or pastor) a small church that didn't want to grow, that didn't regularly attempt to reach out in any way they could think. I think that's a straw man.<br /><br />And I see there the implication that small = bad, a sign that God's not blessing. False implication.<br /><br />How about that they're small because, in spite of faithful preaching, folks visit (if they even visit) and find the music isn't top notch? That there isn't a youth group, already, for their kids? That there isn't already a support group for divorced albino hunchbacks? That there isn't a handbell choir?<br /><br />That it isn't a supermarket already stocked with full shelves, ready for them just to reach out and take?<br /><br />That it isn't attached to a Big Name?<br /><br />You're not going to get me to budge on this one. I saw it twenty-five years ago at Biola, as everyone took buses to go to Swindoll's church, while small churches around campus languished for lack of attendance and workers.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-7654359262970129672010-07-20T12:19:53.873-05:002010-07-20T12:19:53.873-05:00It also occurs to me that in these discussions tha...It also occurs to me that in these discussions that members of small churches all assume they are small because they are the ultimate embodiment of Jesus' church and ignore the fact that maybe the reason they remain so small isn't because they are too faithful, but rather because they are atrophied and inward focused. Many are a part of a small local church which is effectively dead, they just don't know it yet.<br /><br />In many cases, it would seem that small churches don't remain small because they are continually spinning off new churches with new leadership on a regular basis to accommodate the friends, family members and coworkers of the church members who now need to join the church family and receive proper discipleship. They remain small because there are so very few being added to the flock outside of birth and marriage.<br /><br />Just saying.Denishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03978034888390591496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-14524834860436062032010-07-20T11:46:29.091-05:002010-07-20T11:46:29.091-05:00It occurs to me that nearly everyone involved in a...It occurs to me that nearly everyone involved in a mega-church or multi-site church believes their church is the exception that is able to rise above the dangers and problems associated with such churches.<br /><br />One aspect people don't like to talk about is the large numbers of people who attend these churches and never attend a small group. They're simply spectators, there for the show. In what version of the Bible does that constitute a biblical model for a church?<br /><br />Oh, and church discipline. How do you do Matthew 18 in a multi-site? When it says, "If he refuses to listen to them [two or three witnesses], tell it to the church," does that mean you chronicle Joe-adulterer's sin up on the big screen on Sunday morning? Or do you just tweet it to all the members? <br /><br />I'm being slightly snarky, but it's a serious issue that I don't think can be seriously (biblically) addressed in a mega/multi-site setting.Paula Bolyardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05567777774272590296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-44943105102602830692010-07-20T10:50:59.616-05:002010-07-20T10:50:59.616-05:00Dan,
Thank you for the additional explanation of ...Dan,<br /><br />Thank you for the additional explanation of your position, I appreciate that.Denishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03978034888390591496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-69210810616128404962010-07-20T10:50:37.487-05:002010-07-20T10:50:37.487-05:00Hi Al,
In closing, I just thought I'd add tha...Hi Al,<br /><br />In closing, I just thought I'd add that I agree with 2 important things you just said.<br /><br />First, you said: <i>The need for "small groups" is real I just think we need to have pastors over such small groups.</i><br /><br />I completely agree; the church ought to provide personal and intentional leadership from outside of the small group itself.<br /><br />Second, you said: <i>I think pastors should be able to see the consequences of a one man, many campus ministry. Perhaps they do see it and have addressed it, but man it seems dangerous to me.</i><br /><br />I do agree there is some significant risk involved and that those who are in these situations must seriously understand the risks and work diligently to mitigate them. I can definitely see the potential for serious problems with such an arrangement, I just don't think they are inevitable.<br /><br />Thanks.Denishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03978034888390591496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-66429121136072121152010-07-20T06:52:16.698-05:002010-07-20T06:52:16.698-05:00Denis,
As you said, end of the meta.
I would jus...Denis,<br />As you said, end of the meta. <br /><br />I would just say that as the pastor goes, so does the church. We should all be having brownies and confessing sin with/to one another. The need for "small groups" is real I just think we need to have pastors over such small groups.<br /><br />You asked if pastors of large churches were committing serious error. Wisdom is, in part, the ability to see consequences for one's actions. The ability to look at the ant and see the benefits of hard, steady labor is the business of the wise man. <br /><br />I think pastors should be able to see the consequences of a one man, many campus ministry. Perhaps they do see it and have addressed it, but man it seems dangerous to me.<br /><br />al sendsAlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02659402617723892967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-45550786720385970412010-07-20T06:17:00.791-05:002010-07-20T06:17:00.791-05:00Absolutely right, Rupert. The label "sheep&qu...Absolutely right, Rupert. The label "sheep" is cautionary, not complimentary.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-65728267256651747912010-07-20T06:16:08.338-05:002010-07-20T06:16:08.338-05:00I don't see the authority for being that cut-a...I don't see the authority for being that cut-and-dried about it, Denis. So I would not go that far.<br /><br />What I would say is that huge churches concern me; I'd say that the yearning for a single body just to get bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger is not a healthy one; I'd say that <i>anyone</i> calling himself a "pastor" had better continue in <i>pastoral</i> work (which involves a lot more than standing up and talking to groups), or he should find another title for himself and for his organization; and I cannot for the life of me think of one Biblical, God-honoring reason why projection of an image to multiple campuses honors or best serves anyone but the speaker.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-12364262912005596782010-07-20T01:52:54.327-05:002010-07-20T01:52:54.327-05:00I think your methodology is very real and very eff...I think your methodology is very real and very effective Al. (For those who are a part of it of course.) I have observed this as being especially successful during my own time in the church.<br /><br />I do get a little perturbed about the whole 'sheep' analogy thing though, given my knowledge of sheep (no, I'm not a Kiwi!).Ruperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16141432408537488025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-997520191362055652010-07-20T01:24:16.168-05:002010-07-20T01:24:16.168-05:00I realize this meta is coming to an end, but I do ...I realize this meta is coming to an end, but I do have a closing question, if I could.<br /><br />Dan, would you say that, without exception, any pastor who leads a church which is, or becomes, a large church is committing a very serious and significant error?<br /><br />For this question I will define a large church as one who has more members than one pastor can personally and individually minister to on a regular and consistent basis.<br /><br />Also, for the record, this isn't some kind of setup or attempted trick; I have no clever response planned. I just want to make sure I leave here with a correct understanding of what you believe and are teaching.<br /><br />Thanks.Denishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03978034888390591496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-23242840666864210482010-07-20T00:52:50.225-05:002010-07-20T00:52:50.225-05:00Al,
My response to you had nothing to do with the...Al,<br /><br />My response to you had nothing to do with the role or abilities of a pastor. <br /><br />I was talking about the ability of me, a member of the body, to be in real relationship with others (we were, I thought, talking about small groups and how they help grow biblical community, not specifically the role of the pastor).<br /><br />If you thought I was talking about what a pastor could or could not do in such a situation you missed my point entirely; perhaps I wasn't entirely clear.Denishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03978034888390591496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-70070766008306258832010-07-19T19:32:29.084-05:002010-07-19T19:32:29.084-05:00Thank you, Al, and God bless you.
So well said.Thank you, Al, and God bless you.<br /><br /><i>So</i> well said.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-76456101044316823292010-07-19T19:25:10.199-05:002010-07-19T19:25:10.199-05:00Denis,
If I had 50 families in my Church I could m...Denis,<br />If I had 50 families in my Church I could make it into everyone's home at least once a year for a pastoral visit and still have 26 weeks left over. They could each serve me brownies and coffee and I would be able to ask them about their sin and see how a wife glances at the kids when I ask the husband about his anger issues. I could look a man in the eye, again over brownies, and ask if pornography is keeping him from his wife (or vice versa in this weird age).<br /><br />Here is the thing... you are called to pastor a flock and to pursue them to the edges of the fold and beyond if required. This is done best in community and to have a flock so large that you don't even know how many sheep you have is dangerous at best.<br /><br />al sendsAlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02659402617723892967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-28658234627651917172010-07-19T14:54:41.390-05:002010-07-19T14:54:41.390-05:00Sir Aaron and Paula,
I watched the clip Paula lin...Sir Aaron and Paula,<br /><br />I watched the clip Paula linked to on Palin and quite frankly I think she did fine. She was specific about the big picture; secure the border, no amnesty, no reward for breaking the law, deport… while being unspecific about details much past building the fence and using the National Guard. Maybe this is because she has no greater plan or maybe this is the way the game has to be played on this side of the election. Tell your voting block what they want to hear right up to the point where you try not to push any fence sitters away. IOW, I don’t think she had trouble answering any question because she was unprepared but answered only as far as she felt she should.<br /><br />Oh, and one more thing, Aaron, while I agree in principal with what you said about being prepared for public speaking and answering questions, I do think there was something there a little self-contradictory that you missed. You said up front that the McCain/Palin advisors blew it. You then proceeded to say that Palin should be more prepared for answering questions. Did it ever dawn on you that it was such preparedness that the advisors blew? IOW, in an effort to make sure that Palin could answer any and all questions did she become something other than who she really is and now has decided to trust her own extinct instead. I’m pretty sure how Palin would answer this question.Ron (aka RealityCheck)https://www.blogger.com/profile/03274921909241630662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-80040092742014305762010-07-19T14:10:14.871-05:002010-07-19T14:10:14.871-05:00Al,
I was talking about building the type of rela...Al,<br /><br />I was talking about building the type of relationships where I can call them at 3 am when I need to take my wife to the hospital and need someone to watch the kids. The type of people I call for a games night at my house or a day out at the lake during the summer. Getting to know people and what their struggles are and how I can help them strengthen their faith or help them heal after they loose a baby. A group of people I can truly get to know and love practically.<br /><br />I don't know about you, but I cannot be in this type of relationship with more than a handful of families. Even in a church of 50 families I can't be in this type of relationship with the whole body. <br /><br />Also, even if the entire church gathers together as one body to take part in the communion every Sunday, it takes much more than spending Sunday morning's worship service together to grow the type of relationships I am referring to. I would argue this type of relationship is an important part of the community described in Acts 2.<br /><br />Breaking off into small groups is not be the be-all-and-end-all of Christian community and biblical fellowship, but I would argue it is an important aspect for churches of any size (this may not be a formal aspect of the church, but it happens none the less).Denishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03978034888390591496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-69832543645873851132010-07-19T13:10:20.225-05:002010-07-19T13:10:20.225-05:00Denis,
The idea that we break up into small groups...Denis,<br />The idea that we break up into small groups to meet the requirements of biblical fellowship strikes me as a bit silly. The Church had all things in common, not just the folks who lived on your side of town.<br /><br />Also, do you see any correlation between the breaking of bread and the Lord's Supper? Tough to be one loaf via video (or once a quarter, in the evening service for that matter).<br /><br />al sendsAlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02659402617723892967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-16137270424769886012010-07-19T12:20:46.622-05:002010-07-19T12:20:46.622-05:00Dan, to answer "[w]hen is a church too big?&q...Dan, to answer "[w]hen is a church too big?" <br /><br />A church with 200 people and only one man willing to provide any kind of leadership is likely too big.<br /><br />A church with 2000 people and a hundred men willing to provide leadership, both at the "official clergy" and lay levels is likely doing just fine.<br /><br />This is, in part, what I was trying to get at earlier when I stated that I do not see size alone being a good indicator of how healthy a church is.<br /><br />You also said, "Plus, it's the rare man keep pastoral reality when he has been isolated by layers of men who "do people," while they sit read and compose and deliver lectures, and not lose pastoral reality."<br /><br />Again, this seems to be another example of you applying a worst case scenario to every situation. <br /><br />There was a reason I said that the large church pastor would be one who is "directly involved with [people] on a regular and personal basis which includes <b>(but not to the exclusion of)</b> other leaders."<br /><br />The large church pastor does not need to be isolated or disconnected from pastoral reality. He can still be a part of a small group, he can still minister to individuals in need, he can still have a coffee group with friends who are sceptics, he can still perform all forms of pastoral duty (I know, because my pastor does these things). What he cannot do is be involved at this level with absolutely everyone, thats where other leaders come in.<br /><br />So, while you raise a valid risk the large church pastor must guard against, the simple existence of risk does mean the worst case consequence will inevitably occur.Denishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03978034888390591496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-55751923678454166652010-07-19T11:39:42.855-05:002010-07-19T11:39:42.855-05:00Ideal size: 217
Frankly, it tells me all I need t...Ideal size: 217<br /><br />Frankly, it tells me all I need to know that you won't answer the simple question, "When is a church too big?" It's created a generation of churches whose single real goal is BIGGER. That's greed, not godliness.<br /><br />There are a host of Biblical imperatives for churches that aren't met by small cities passing for churches. Plus, it's the rare man keep pastoral reality when he has been isolated by layers of men who "do people," while they sit read and compose and deliver lectures, and not lose pastoral reality.<br /><br />Then the great name dies or moves on and leaves an empty building as an embarrassing monument to the departed rock star.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.com