tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post3524157548055108670..comments2024-03-01T21:01:15.174-06:00Comments on Biblical Christianity: How nice: SBC-related megachurch wears apostasy up-frontDJPhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-56996067196886935422007-06-07T12:13:00.000-05:002007-06-07T12:13:00.000-05:00Thank you for "excusing" my "contribution," althou...Thank you for "excusing" my "contribution," although I have in fact been following this thread since it was first posted.<BR/><BR/>I'll let Pastor Steve speak for himself, but oddly, I don't see any inconsistency whatsoever between his position and mine.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-81878118231475737952007-06-07T01:05:00.000-05:002007-06-07T01:05:00.000-05:00Paul may not be writing about head coverings as we...<I>Paul may not be writing about head coverings as we understand them in 1 Cor 11...he says a man dishonours his head by wearing a head covering, but in Ezekiel 44:18, Levitical priests are enjoined by God to wear head coverings. In 44:20, however, priests are also neither to shave their heads, nor to have long hair. It is possible that what Paul is referring to is the way one wears one's hair, as women of decorum in Corinth at the time wore their hair done up with pins, in a sort of crown. Jewish women who wore their hair down were regarded as adultresses (Num 5:18); in Corinth, women in the cult of Isis would wear their hair down when participating in their frenzied rituals.</I><BR/><BR/>You might have entered into this conversation quite late, so your contribution is quite excusable. But just to bring you up to speed, I'll share with you Pastor Steve's hermeneutic approach:<BR/><BR/><I>What is so complex about this verse?<BR/><BR/>1 Timothy 2:12-13 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. <BR/><BR/>What makes it complex is when we start twisting its meaning to fit our own ideals. To take this plain statement and twist it to say totally the opposite is indeed a complex work of exegesis.</I><BR/><BR/>In short, I'm sure Pastor Steve would disagree with your exegesis because Scripture requires a simple reading. Some might even say a lazy and ill-informed reading that ignores context, settting and audience. The fact that you've actually sought to understand these elements rather than blindly follow the straight forward reading of the text is evidence that you are simply making the text say what you want it to say.David Castorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17367908059008038221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-60416744076255981462007-06-05T13:39:00.000-05:002007-06-05T13:39:00.000-05:00One of the only things that gives North Koreans ho...One of the only things that gives North Koreans hope, for example—a society where speech is more heavily regulated than anywhere else on earth—is the underground proliferation of the Bible there.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-78685141110747477442007-06-05T13:37:00.000-05:002007-06-05T13:37:00.000-05:00Free speech is better than the alternative.Free speech is better than the alternative.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-39066933533059344622007-06-05T13:29:00.000-05:002007-06-05T13:29:00.000-05:00Sometimes I really dislike living in a country tha...Sometimes I really dislike living in a country that allows free speech...Pastor Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11064672747243307518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-31665701689013289612007-06-05T13:04:00.000-05:002007-06-05T13:04:00.000-05:00Paul may not be writing about head coverings as we...Paul may not be writing about head coverings as we understand them in 1 Cor 11...he says a man dishonours his head by wearing a head covering, but in Ezekiel 44:18, Levitical priests are enjoined by God to wear head coverings. In 44:20, however, priests are also neither to shave their heads, nor to have long hair. It is possible that what Paul is referring to is the way one wears one's hair, as women of decorum in Corinth at the time wore their hair done up with pins, in a sort of crown. Jewish women who wore their hair down were regarded as adultresses (Num 5:18); in Corinth, women in the cult of Isis would wear their hair down when participating in their frenzied rituals. <BR/><BR/>Either way, there is enough ambiguity in this passage that it is <I>not</I> so clear-cut that it's about hats, veils, or the like. It is possible to throw up our hands and say that we don't really know exactly what Paul meant...we shouldn't cast aside what he has written, but we shouldn't be making up rules Pharisaically on the basis of what we <I>think</I> Paul meant. His main point in this passage was that men and women have divinely ordained and distinct, complementary roles to play in life and in worship, and they should not scandalize new belivers by doing away with fundamental sexual distinctions in appearance.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-39624479135857596672007-06-05T12:56:00.000-05:002007-06-05T12:56:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-56102787234055117102007-06-05T11:10:00.000-05:002007-06-05T11:10:00.000-05:00Dan - Pauls view on head coverings is perfectly cl...Dan - <BR/><BR/>Pauls view on head coverings is perfectly clear. I have no issues with it. Just as I have no issues with the role of women in church as stated by Paul.<BR/><BR/>I am glad that your standing up for both positions, in a consistent manner, as they are both the clear teaching of the bible. <BR/><BR/>So yes, I did read everything, including the verses we are discussing, as well as your pals D. Wallaces excelent piece on headcoverings before I posted. <BR/><BR/>And just when have I ever said <BR/>"if any passage is not crystal-clear, then every passage you have personal issues with are unclear?"<BR/><BR/>I know I have not ever said, much less posted that or anything similar anywhere. But thanks for making the statement (posed as a question) and whacking me over the head with it. Because the really does address my point. No, guess not. But it is a nice example of an ad hominem arguement. You win.David A. Carlsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00465387359523299616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-54867948626043608832007-06-05T08:40:00.000-05:002007-06-05T08:40:00.000-05:00...because, if any passage is not crystal-clear, t......because, if <I>any</I> passage is not crystal-clear, then <I>every</I> passage you have personal issues with are unclear?<BR/><BR/>Do you even actually <I>read</I> what you're kneejerking to, <I>before</I> you kneejerk?DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-49993196587395440762007-06-05T08:11:00.000-05:002007-06-05T08:11:00.000-05:00djp - glad to see your leading the charge for head...djp - glad to see your leading the charge for head coverings.<BR/><BR/>It is after all, the clear teaching of the bible. We do need to correct those apostate churches that do not require them.David A. Carlsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00465387359523299616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-30934002667988819112007-06-05T06:08:00.000-05:002007-06-05T06:08:00.000-05:00Pastor Steve, fwiw, it struck me just the same way...<B>Pastor Steve</B>, fwiw, it struck me just the same way.<BR/><BR/>So, in review:<BR/><BR/>1. The Bible clearly says A<BR/>2. The world emphatitically says B<BR/>3. A church that embraces B, to that degree, is apostate.<BR/><BR/>Throw out all the big names one likes, it really doesn't affect the argument. If [insert-big-name-here] advocates something, can it really be sin?<BR/><BR/>Well, yes. Of course.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-33336985317621579592007-06-04T16:26:00.000-05:002007-06-04T16:26:00.000-05:00no problem Pastor Steve. I am the token (fill in ...no problem Pastor Steve. I am the token (fill in the blank) hereDavid A. Carlsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00465387359523299616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-67943299760966288902007-06-04T14:53:00.000-05:002007-06-04T14:53:00.000-05:00My apologies then for reading too much into it. I...My apologies then for reading too much into it. I'm pretty hyper when it comes to defending the authority of Scripture, sometimes overly so probably.Pastor Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11064672747243307518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-82849354334056072262007-06-03T19:47:00.000-05:002007-06-03T19:47:00.000-05:00Frank is correct as to my thinking.having said tha...Frank is correct as to my thinking.<BR/><BR/>having said that, I do think this particular teaching is authoritative.David A. Carlsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00465387359523299616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-26084655483228585692007-06-03T15:28:00.000-05:002007-06-03T15:28:00.000-05:00Cent, I agree with that, but I think that statemen...Cent, <BR/><BR/>I agree with that, but I think that statement by Paul in 1 Cor. can be projected on too many other statements by Paul, thus relegating more of his teaching to mere opinion than should be. I think it's a slippery slope that we need to be careful of. <BR/><BR/>In 27 verses Paul uses the phrase "I do not" of which 1 Tim. 2:12 is a part. While not all 27 times are as significant or carry the same weight, he uses that phrase when introducing tongues (1 Cor. 12:1), In reference to teaching on the mystery of the church (Rom. 11:25), and on things sacrificed to idols (1 Cor. 10:20). I would count all of those as being authoritative teaching, and not mere opinion.Pastor Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11064672747243307518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-7596231100469368962007-06-03T13:43:00.000-05:002007-06-03T13:43:00.000-05:00Pastor Steve:I'm not sure David was advocating wor...Pastor Steve:<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure David was advocating word a "Red Letter" version of Bible reading. His point-- which I think is a valid one -- is that Paul sometimes give sadvice rather than making theological pronouncements. The passage in 1 Cor where he is discoursing on marriage is an excellent example -- where he would rather (in his own opinion) that all people were like himself and unmarried by dedicated to service of the Gospel, buit that the command of God is to be married, and that marriage is not a trifle but a covenant which must be honored even when one of the spouses is not a believer.<BR/><BR/>The Bible is God-breathed -- not question. But we have to read what is said there in the way it is said and in the intention it is given for the purpose it is given.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-30734755948795703422007-06-03T08:08:00.000-05:002007-06-03T08:08:00.000-05:00So how inspired was Paul when he wrote this passag...So how inspired was Paul when he wrote this passage in 1 Timothy, as opposed to the words that we have recorded from Jesus? Was he only 85% inspired? Maybe 92%? And then how much leniency do we have in following it? Can we fudge on it up to 15% or 8%?Pastor Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11064672747243307518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-45983759149185839772007-06-03T07:25:00.000-05:002007-06-03T07:25:00.000-05:00I find a couple of things interesting about I Tim ...I find a couple of things interesting about I Tim 2:12/13<BR/><BR/>First - Paul often diferentiates between his own words and Jesus's words - as in here where he says "I do not allow...". This is not to argue it is not a biblical mandate, but I have always been interested how Paul does that and I have not found any sort of study or write up on it. But pay attention to it when you read Paul. Paul clearly places more weight on the words of Jesus and seems to assume that his readers will also. Which is one of those "no duh" kind of statements, but my easily diverted mind has always been fascinated by Pauls habit of doing that. But I think a legitimate question is this - If Paul places a higher value on Jesus's actual words than his own - should not we? If we are going to point out errors in others beliefs, should we draw the brightest line in what Jesus taught as of most importance, and what his disciples taught as second?<BR/><BR/>Second, and more directly related, Paul was actually being incredibly radical in I Tim. In our pomo culture, it is easy to pass over 2:11 "a woman must learn quietly". Of course a woman must learn we think. In Jewish culture of the time, women were not taught the law. Paul goes way past allowing the teaching of the law to women - he states that women "must" learn. That is a radical overturning of Jewish tradition. <BR/><BR/>Now go to church. <BR/><BR/>Oh, and as to titles to posts, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinal today led with "Lutherans favor end to gay clergy ban ". While accurate, you had to read the rest of the article to know that it was the ELCA, and further that it was just the Greater Miwaukee Synod Assembly. So, not really "Lutherans did this" in the larger sense of all Lutherans, but accurate in the sense that one small part of one part of the group of people who call themselves Luthern did this.David A. Carlsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00465387359523299616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-37082069955561507922007-06-03T07:24:00.000-05:002007-06-03T07:24:00.000-05:00Well, I heard she doesn't cuss or drink or go with...Well, I heard she doesn't cuss or drink or go with boys who do. That's got to count for something ...<BR/><BR/>... pheh ...FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-40635222017466082772007-06-02T08:36:00.000-05:002007-06-02T08:36:00.000-05:00What is so complex about this verse?1 Timothy 2:12...What is so complex about this verse?<BR/><BR/>1 Timothy 2:12-13 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. <BR/><BR/>What makes it complex is when we start twisting its meaning to fit our own ideals. To take this plain statement and twist it to say totally the opposite is indeed a complex work of exegesis.Pastor Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11064672747243307518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-78620077596958242272007-06-02T07:51:00.000-05:002007-06-02T07:51:00.000-05:00"a pastor young enough and mature enough to appeal..."a pastor young enough and mature enough to appeal to both young and old congregants, a dynamic speaker, and passionate and warm leader with a vision for the future of the church."<BR/><BR/>I am sure they got just what they were looking for.David A. Carlsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00465387359523299616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-17050379278030721422007-06-01T22:00:00.000-05:002007-06-01T22:00:00.000-05:00Allow me to soften what I said, least I be hypocri...Allow me to soften what I said, least I be hypocritical. Can I simply suggest (to borrow anothers word) "polite disagreement rather than condemning a brother (or sister) in Christ as a heretic and blasphemer".Samhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11545870883633534790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-28363030448221742822007-06-01T18:42:00.000-05:002007-06-01T18:42:00.000-05:00I wasn't aware that FF Bruce was considered an apo...I wasn't aware that FF Bruce was considered an apostate.<BR/><BR/>Seriously though, the fact is that there are many committed scholars making strong biblical arguments on BOTH sides of this issue.<BR/><BR/>Female subordination and teaching is a <I>complex</I> debate. To deny this, or to act as though it is clear-cut, is to take an arrogant and ungracious stance toward those who differ with you.<BR/><BR/>NB: I refer only to those who argue on a scriptural basis. Anyone who simply decides to ignore a verse, or be 'lead by the spirit' to go against it, rather than arriving at a different understanding, is a different story...Samhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11545870883633534790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-55916808429042791672007-06-01T10:12:00.000-05:002007-06-01T10:12:00.000-05:00David Castor,Actually the accusation doesn't work ...David Castor,<BR/><BR/>Actually the accusation doesn't work both ways. If you appeal to "the Holy Spirit led me", when it conflicts with what the Holy Spirit has already revealed (2 Peter 1:20, 21), you are at least mistaken. Then again, if you don't view the Scripture as the authoritative, sufficient, and final revelation of God, doing whatever you subconcious prompts you to do may seem authoritative.Ed Grooverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05392051422721448557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-80334328012752657062007-06-01T08:47:00.000-05:002007-06-01T08:47:00.000-05:00Yours is one; CARM gives another. My use doesn't f...<I>Yours is one; CARM gives another. My use doesn't fit yours. It does fit theirs.</I><BR/><BR/>Clearly if Matt Slick says something, it must be true. Although, where he gets this four-fold division of Scriptural error from Scripture itself is anyone's guess ...David Castorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17367908059008038221noreply@blogger.com