tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post4810533297822012534..comments2024-03-01T21:01:15.174-06:00Comments on Biblical Christianity: Harold Camping is not a false prophetDJPhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-16084802184992595552011-11-13T19:19:19.069-06:002011-11-13T19:19:19.069-06:00It is now after October 21st and Harold has change...It is now after October 21st and Harold has changed his tune. Now he was wrong about a lot of things except keeping the money he stole from duped followers. He hasn't said anything about that. And a widow out there is still waiting for her husband's life's savings since "1994?" There are individuals out there who have said, "See? He has apologized." No, he has not. Bring forth the fruits worthy of repentance said Jesus. Returning all the money is worthy of the fruits of repentance. Otherwise Harold Camping has not repented at all. He is still a liar and a thief. Watch out for him. The wolf is still on the prowl. The lion is out there seeking someone to devour.MovieMakerOnTheHillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08533854950600680534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-85206808122484160442011-07-19T09:27:36.530-05:002011-07-19T09:27:36.530-05:00Of course Charles' point is that Camping has b...Of course Charles' point is that Camping has been sidelined by an interestingly-timed stroke; but your thought was also my first thought. What is needed is repentance, retraction, restitution. That hasn't happened.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-5741331227096424232011-07-19T09:24:59.431-05:002011-07-19T09:24:59.431-05:00Harold is not "mute", not as long as his...Harold is not "mute", not as long as his followers still have stolen money and are likely to lie again to raise more money.MovieMakerOnTheHillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08533854950600680534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-45546589985625113212011-07-18T22:15:35.077-05:002011-07-18T22:15:35.077-05:00The issue is moot Harold is mute.The issue is moot Harold is mute.charleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03333274374593818088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-72412504599380269692011-06-16T09:37:32.429-05:002011-06-16T09:37:32.429-05:00I'm not certain we disagree. I simply haven...I'm not certain we disagree. I simply haven't seen Camping claim direct revelation to which no one else is privy. But I've heard that he says God "showed" him this interpretive key — which gets us close, but may still be a perverse form of that fuzzy evangelical notion of "illumination," which false short of direct revelation. Do you see?<br /><br />To me, the key is whether Camping claims to get his perverse garbage from the text, or whether he claims knowledge given directly to him and independent of the text. Former = false teacher; latter = false prophet. (Either is bad enough, of course.)<br /><br />And any of his poor dupes who call him a prophet reflect that they are victims of (wait for it) Camping's false teaching.<br /><br />In sum: show me a quotation from Camping claiming direct revelation, and I'll call him a false prophet.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-42246466939205949862011-06-16T08:27:50.019-05:002011-06-16T08:27:50.019-05:00I understand your point from a Biblical perspectiv...I understand your point from a Biblical perspective, but, I must disagree. You see, Harold thinks he is a prophet, so from his point of view God has chosen him to bring his message to mankind. Bob Donahue, a close friend of his, has used phrases like, "God said to us, " and "God has told us." Do they mean this literally. It does not matter. They leave it to the imaginations of the listeners and can deny they meant it literally at any time they are shoved into a corner to explain themselves. This is what deceit is about, lying to self and others. Bob says Harold's a prophet. Many consider Harold to be a prophet. Harold has his own interpretation of what a prophet is. It is all about interpretation and what people think he is. Regardless of what the scriptures prove. We know the word has very specific interpretations. Yes, to Christians he is a "false teacher". But to those he scammed he was a "prophet", whether they understood what a true prophet was or not. A true prophet is correct 100% of the time, because his predictions come from an infallible God, not from fallible man. God promised swift destruction would come upon those who spread evil lies about him, so be it. Amen.MovieMakerOnTheHillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08533854950600680534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-30613857766118583672011-05-26T08:41:07.907-05:002011-05-26T08:41:07.907-05:00Thanks Terry.
Terry, honestly, giving the dishear...Thanks Terry.<br /><br />Terry, honestly, giving the disheartening and puzzling daintiness and near-silence in some quarters, I'm mainly just happy to see someone calling Camping a "false" <i>something</i>, in plain language.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-78496344903881594772011-05-26T08:38:45.480-05:002011-05-26T08:38:45.480-05:00Good distinction, Dan.
I've amended my own po...Good distinction, Dan.<br /><br />I've amended my own post accordingly at http://grace-for-life.blogspot.com/2011/05/harold-campings-most-recent-false.html<br /><br />Thanks!Terry Rayburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00888533194435826837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-40533689689489652592011-05-22T22:43:08.036-05:002011-05-22T22:43:08.036-05:00I'm hearing roots of it decades ago in his deb...I'm hearing roots of it decades ago in his debate with John Walvoord. He keeps saying that this and that passage must be "read very carefully," which is code for "...lest you think it simply means what it says."DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-3856100258608177682011-05-22T22:40:03.989-05:002011-05-22T22:40:03.989-05:00Dan, several of us were chatting about this with J...Dan, several of us were chatting about this with James White. White said that in his 2009 debate with Camping that he claimed to understand the contents of Daniel 12, which no one else had ever understood. He said there was a clear element of "new revelation" in Camping's teaching.Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01410144337505012175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-71228580825496314712011-05-20T00:52:15.300-05:002011-05-20T00:52:15.300-05:00To me, the end of the world will be, THAT DAY WHEN...To me, the end of the world will be, THAT DAY WHEN I DIE.<br /><br />Now, the "Final Judgement Day"<br />simply get your bible out and read these.<br /><br />Mt. 24,35-36<br />Mark 13, 31-33 ("No one knows..."}<br />Matheo 7, 15-23<br />Mt. 25, 31-46<br /> The promising of Yahveh to Noah.<br /><br />Gen.9, 8-11<br /><br />Just BE ON GUARD! BE ALERT!rigo123456789https://www.blogger.com/profile/15530343890270803755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-6627497565478004612011-05-19T17:25:17.379-05:002011-05-19T17:25:17.379-05:00Thanks, Charlene. I was hoping for at least one or...Thanks, Charlene. I was hoping for at least one or two double-takes.<br /><br />(c:DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-70194624023652637992011-05-19T17:23:20.773-05:002011-05-19T17:23:20.773-05:00When I first saw the title of this post I thought ...When I first saw the title of this post I thought you were crazy. Now i understand. Good distinction.Charlenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13361921772340278114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-36285341001345281282011-05-18T19:25:49.411-05:002011-05-18T19:25:49.411-05:00@solameanie: I think what you say is true. But I...@solameanie: I think what you say is true. But I think that is part of the whole attempt to shoehorn the gifts such as tongues, prophesy, etc. into some modern interpretation so that we can say they still exist today. <br /><br />Thus, when I tell somebody that if they keep playing in the street they'll get by a car and they do, I must have the gift of prophesy!Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15285043747501470199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-82512105976470783762011-05-18T18:46:27.055-05:002011-05-18T18:46:27.055-05:00Solameanie,
I believe that part of where that app...Solameanie,<br /><br />I believe that part of where that application comes from is that prophets did apply the existing written revelation to the circumstances of their day. In other words, their prophetic forthtellings often referenced the law. For that reason, there was a Puritan tradition of referring to one aspect of preaching as "prophesying." <br /><br />Understand, though, that in their age, while the Quakers did believe in inner light, there was not any movement afoot presenting new, false revelation under the name of "prophecy." <br /><br />Given the age in which we live, it is right to avoid such language. I expect Puritans themselves would have avoided calling preaching "prophesying" if they had encountered TBN. <br /><br />Indeed, the central difference between preachers and prophets is, as Dan says, that preachers do not have direct special revelation.Tom Chantryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02485908616177111150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-42657372178407449562011-05-18T16:28:41.726-05:002011-05-18T16:28:41.726-05:00Who pays for this long term expression of the auto...Who pays for this long term expression of the autonomy of self?Dave Linnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04379688294296325919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-2170632446669542102011-05-18T16:07:34.471-05:002011-05-18T16:07:34.471-05:00Yep; I was in Long Beach, listening to KFRN in the...Yep; I was in Long Beach, listening to KFRN in the late 70s or so. Good times, actually.<br /><br />Pastor = prophet: nope. That's a theory on a theory. There's no warrant nor need to make that jump. A pastor's a pastor, a prophet's a prophet. What makes a prophet a prophet is that God speaks directly to and through him, not mediated by the written Word. Not so, the faithful pastor.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-41710669114889185282011-05-18T16:01:44.756-05:002011-05-18T16:01:44.756-05:00Dan, don't mean to clutter the blog with comme...Dan, don't mean to clutter the blog with comments, but I just thought of another "prophet" distinction and wonder if it applies or makes sense. <br /><br />While Harold is predicting with certainty the end on Saturday (albeit through misinterpreting the Bible and not divine revelation), I have always understood there is another role of "prophet," i.e. forthtelling God's truth from Scripture, which is the role of your everyday pastor or teacher. When he preaches expository messages from God's Word, isn't that the "prophetic voice" of the pastor/church? If I am right, you could say Camping is a false "prophet" in that sense. <br /><br />HSAT, I think you are right in that it is best for the sake of clarity to call him a false teacher, as the average Joe Six Pack doesn't understand the other "prophetic" role or voice.Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-36940592521416653702011-05-18T15:44:37.430-05:002011-05-18T15:44:37.430-05:00I actually worked at Camping's Long Beach stat...I actually worked at Camping's Long Beach station, KFRN, from 1982 to 83 when I was in my early 20s. Like Dan, I thought they had a lot of great programming and they aired John MacArthur back then. I used to run the control board during "Open Forum" and thought Harold had a bit of a screw loose, especially when it came to eschatology and the extreme position he took on our charismatic and Pentecostal brothers. He believed they were preaching "another Gospel" and were on their way to Hell for "adding to the Word of God." He also thought unregenerate babies went to Hell, as I remember, but I'd best not stake my life on that because it was nearly 30 years ago. <br /><br />I can remember when he'd get hold of a biblically trained caller who actually knew how to rightly divide Scripture, and after seeing he was outclassed, usually hung up and said, "Thank you for calling, good night! Can we take our next call, please?" <br /><br />This is indeed a sad story And thanks, Dan, for the clarifying distinction on false prophets and teachers. I can see your point. <br /><br />As an aside, my word verification for this post was "martr." Only the "y" was missing.Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-41358878647345856102011-05-18T15:06:50.388-05:002011-05-18T15:06:50.388-05:00My wife has end of year grading to do this weekend...My wife has end of year grading to do this weekend... I told her to wait until Saturday. You know, just in case.<br /><br />al sendsAlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02659402617723892967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-33597770612944368502011-05-18T14:35:21.206-05:002011-05-18T14:35:21.206-05:00This guy has never really been on my radar and I’m...This guy has never really been on my radar and I’m a little surprised he is on so many others. I appreciate the point made here by Dan about it not being a matter of false prophecy, but false teaching.<br /><br />However, I think that he could end up being right because there are so many people thinking that he is obviously wrong, that now 21 May has almost become the time least expected. <br /><br />Wouldn’t that be a hoot?JackWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16384160992033491748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-11673818849056386562011-05-18T14:33:13.486-05:002011-05-18T14:33:13.486-05:00Oh, too funny about the 6pm in every time zone. M...Oh, too funny about the 6pm <i>in every time zone</i>. My boys latched onto that bit of weirdness, and we decided it's like one of those chocolate oranges you get at Christmas. (You know, "Whack and unwrap"). Devoured, one section at a time.<br /><br />Word verification: rantles(s); what we wish Harold Camping was.Herding Grasshoppershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15668974245505544238noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-20396215258845478522011-05-18T12:47:18.289-05:002011-05-18T12:47:18.289-05:00http://www.familyradio.com/index2.html
Yep, Mr. C...http://www.familyradio.com/index2.html<br /><br />Yep, Mr. Camping will have a LOT of explaining to do on Sunday...Gilberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05267525662313103148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-46161326861535714072011-05-18T11:55:06.609-05:002011-05-18T11:55:06.609-05:00At my new job, one of my colleagues (a non-believe...At my new job, one of my colleagues (a non-believer, natch) is the house sarcast, who hasn't missed an opportunity to snark about the rapture that's supposedly going to happen on Saturday.<br /><br />I'm still waiting for an opportunity to approach the subject biblically with him, but someone joked that I tease him by not showing up for work on Monday.<br /><br />Anyhow, I also heard that one day a long time ago, Chuck Swindoll's staff pulled a practical joke on him. He was going to come in late to work one day, and when he got there, the lawn mower was running unattended, the church sign was half done, and no one was in the office. He'd been left behind! (Until they all came out from their hiding places, that is.)Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-39636478066818988462011-05-18T11:55:02.698-05:002011-05-18T11:55:02.698-05:00"...At the same time [The Christian Reformed ...<em>"...At the same time [The Christian Reformed Church] also recognized that the Lord had given his church pastors to open the Word of God and preserve the church in the truth (Ephesians 4:4-14). The faithful preaching of these pastors was a means of grace by which the saints were built up...."</em><br /><br /><em>"...[Camping] adopted a proud individualism. He did not really learn from Bible scholars. He studied the Bible in isolation from the church and the consensus of the faithful. As a result his understanding of the Bible became more and more idiosyncratic. No one could help, direct, or restrain him. He was really an autodidact, that is, someone who teaches himself. He never really submitted his ideas to be challenged and improved by others. He was truly his only teacher...."</em><br /><br /><em>"...Camping concluded that the organized church had become faithless and that individual Christians must leave the church and fellowship informally with other true believers...."</em><br /><br />And thus, we see the evolution of a false teacher. Very sad and a warning to the church. <br /><br />But I'm not gonna lie. I will probably take an extra peek or two at the sky on Saturday. : )Paula Bolyardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05567777774272590296noreply@blogger.com