tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post7474097387098772935..comments2024-03-01T21:01:15.174-06:00Comments on Biblical Christianity: How I wish the abortion-for-rape debate would goDJPhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comBlogger149125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-89447719245406127482011-11-02T16:58:25.037-05:002011-11-02T16:58:25.037-05:00What do you want to get me assassinated?!What do you want to get me assassinated?!DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-8544782427349286282011-11-02T16:57:50.048-05:002011-11-02T16:57:50.048-05:00Bravo! Can I vote for you as a write-in candidate ...Bravo! Can I vote for you as a write-in candidate next year?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-43849305179503396392011-10-29T02:51:19.096-05:002011-10-29T02:51:19.096-05:00I have no problem in sharing my testimony. It is n...I have no problem in sharing my testimony. It is not an easy one to share by any means, but if it is one that will help people to see the truth than by all means, I will share. I responded hastily earlier and want to elaborate on a couple of things. First, I stated I am medically unable to have children. In that God has provided me with two beautiful children that I am forever blessed by. I did not conceive them, rather I adopted them. Not in your conventional manner no, they are my husband's children. No matter the means, GOD PROVIDED. <br /><br />One more thing. Philippians 4:6 "Do not be anxious about anything, but in EVERYTHING by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus." Before we do ANYTHING, we should always go before the Lord in prayer. So no matter our "understanding" of whether or not abortion is Godly or ok in any circumstance, all circumstances, or no circumstances. If ever we find ourselves in that position, as Christians we should seek God first!!! Let God lead you, and your understanding just might change. God is not of THIS world, therefore it only goes to follow his wisdom is not wisdom of this world. As Christians, we should be remembering, that God has chosen us out of this world, but that we no longer belong to the world so we should be living in the Kingdom of Heaven NOW.desert_rosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09920778000906120387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-81076097986547680292011-10-28T19:37:37.289-05:002011-10-28T19:37:37.289-05:00I'm very sorry for what was taken from you. Th...I'm very sorry for what was taken from you. Thank you for sharing your perspective.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-39997187825968385062011-10-28T19:18:54.179-05:002011-10-28T19:18:54.179-05:00Ok, as a rape victim, I am going to give my perspe...Ok, as a rape victim, I am going to give my perspective here. I did not get pregnant as a result of the rape, but I still suffer from the memories. It was about 15 years ago, and the memory is STILL there and STILL hard. So, anyone saying that by having an abortion it prevents the mother from suffering the rest of their life, you're wrong. Don't use this as an excuse to kill a child, it's invalid because no matter what, the mother faces suffering. Next, as a woman who is medically unable to have children, I can tell you, there IS another option, adoption. Let the child be Adopted by someone who cannot have children of their own, there are plenty of us out there. This way, the mother does not have to "face" this so boldly day in and day out, nor does she have to live with the well known guilt that abortion tends to bring on. I have two families members who have had abortions, and they will tell you, if they could, they would go back in time and give the child up for adoption. So after being a victim of rape, they are then made victims by their own choices made under extreme stress and emotion. This is something they also have to live with. Why double the burden???desert_rosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09920778000906120387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-11838909472881215962011-10-28T08:34:31.232-05:002011-10-28T08:34:31.232-05:00Many pro-lifers will make the argument that aborti...Many pro-lifers will make the argument that abortion is wrong because in addition to killing the unborn, it also harms the mother. They will bring up breast cancer, the emotional trauma of abortion, and try to sidestep the hardships of having a child the mother didn't plan.<br /><br />This is a losing strategy. First, it completely undermines the principle that the unborn is a person, and thus the hardship of the mother is irrelevant to the question of life. If a toddler was ruining a mother's life and she wanted to kill it, no one would would start trying to deny those hardships aren't real as an attempt to stop the killing. Second, it's just a plain lie. It's far much easier for a mother to just abort the unwanted child and wash her hands of the mess. Pro-lifers can't pretend like doing the Biblical thing is the easiest thing. Pro-lifers must admit that having a kid is going to be an extremely difficult route for the mother in many circumstances, or else people will think they're just really ignorant.Michael B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04125455071613580680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-78883026973581468802011-10-28T08:28:29.127-05:002011-10-28T08:28:29.127-05:00Todd & Tony read it on Wretched yesterday.
G...Todd & Tony read it on Wretched yesterday. <br /><br />Great dialogue!<br />Thanks,<br />Marc<br /><a href="http://slperspective.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Salt & Light Perspective</a>Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03882305948046926754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-78978241884783484562011-10-28T07:59:14.431-05:002011-10-28T07:59:14.431-05:00There's no need to make compassion for the mot...There's no need to make compassion for the mother and valuing of the child an either/or proposition.<br /><br />It's simply a reflection of the perverted state of the debate, and the resultant list of options.<br /><br />For instance, if a husband turns abusive, we might list out things the wife could do in response: she could do A, B, C, D...<br /><br />But "kill all his children" would not be on that list. Yet.<br /><br />So why is it on <i>this</i> list?DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-37132563751342093872011-10-28T07:48:52.617-05:002011-10-28T07:48:52.617-05:00Michael, I think you are right. But people want to...Michael, I think you are right. But people want to feel that in God's world, everything fits together. God cares about both mother and child, so He will make the mother's attachment to the child strong enough to overrule it's connection to the rapist in her feelings. <br /><br />It is similar to the abortion and breast cancer argument in a way. (Maybe there is a connection; I am not commenting on the facts here but on the attitude behind citing them.) If abortion is bad, it must cause bad things like breast cancer. And the fact that it causes breast cancer shows that abortion is bad. Sort of like homosexuality and HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases, or loose sex of any kind and STDs. These aren't seen as merely organisms taking advantage of a way to jump from host to host, but as a sign and a proof that the actions involved are bad. <br /><br />I don't think God enjoins chastity because it prevents STD's. I don't think, either, that doing the right thing is always in accord with what makes us most comfortable and happy. It isn't even always true that doing the wrong thing has immediate terrible psychological consequences, at least as far as one can observe. Sometimes it does, and sometimes one just has to do the right thing for its own sake, because it is right, even if it is a terrible burden.<br /><br />I do think there is something to the fact that women grow attached to their babies as pregnancy progresses, and their love for them isn't always dependent on their feelings for the baby's father. Some women do separate their feelings about the rape from their feelings for the baby. Others do not; they should give the baby up for adoption. I don't doubt that there are some women who would be happier in the short term if they could abort the child of a rapist. I do believe they will be happier people in the long term if they do the right thing. Kalepa ta kala-The good is difficult. <br />Susan Petersoneulogoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05307036781446427993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-19757895506837025712011-10-27T22:09:43.075-05:002011-10-27T22:09:43.075-05:00It is consistent with the pro-life position to not...It is consistent with the pro-life position to not allow abortion in the event of rape. What is troublesome however, is a lot of the comments on here seem to take in account the burden on the mother who has been raped, as if this is somehow relevant to the question of abortion. If the unborn is a person, why is the mother's hardship relevant to the question of whether you can kill the unborn? Some responses on here claim that it is actually better for the rape victim to not get an abortion. Fine, but what if somebody else disagrees? I happen to believe that having a rapist's child will greatly hurt the rape victim's emotional well-being. You may disagree, but suppose I'm right -- is it then okay to have an abortion? Pro-lifers must be willing to say without waffling that the unborn is fully human, and that no amount of suffering on the expectant mother's part justifies the killing of the unborn.Michael B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04125455071613580680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-84434046986572451502011-10-27T11:55:36.210-05:002011-10-27T11:55:36.210-05:00Question to Jack:
Whose body is it? Ours or the L...Question to Jack:<br /><br />Whose body is it? Ours or the Lord's? And if the latter, and he tells us we must not murder...game, set, match.<br /><br />Those against God say "it's my body, and I have a right to do with it as I please". This is about as far into rebellion against God as it gets. Denying ownership. 1 Corinthians 6:20: for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. -ESV<br /><br />You were bought. Ownership is not yours. You cannot kill a baby for any reason. That's God's call to give life or bring death.Gilberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05267525662313103148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-85387308321308198002011-10-26T15:34:29.569-05:002011-10-26T15:34:29.569-05:00If you believe that God opens the womb (Genesis 29...If you believe that God opens the womb (Genesis 29) and shuts it (1 Samuel 1) as the Bible says, a pregnancy that follows a rape is not an accident or a judgment (or a "punishment" as our President called it) or an evil. Nor is such a child an intruder--he or she has been placed in the womb and fashioned according to God's purpose.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03759513028364776662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-45246979819668117982011-10-26T06:00:46.543-05:002011-10-26T06:00:46.543-05:00There y'go, B. The principle surrenders the wh...There y'go, B. The principle surrenders the whole argument. See also <a href="http://bibchr.blogspot.com/2011/10/how-i-wish-abortion-for-rape-debate.html?showComment=1319484165922#c4968203715501862588" rel="nofollow">this comment</a>.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-22480720326744047982011-10-25T22:51:44.375-05:002011-10-25T22:51:44.375-05:00Jack: Let's examine this...did the child have ...<i>Jack: Let's examine this...did the child have permission...I don't think so. Did the child enter upon a portion of the woman (it is a necessary part to come to term for the fertilized egg to implant).</i><br /><br /><br />Sounds like abortion could be valid in any case, using your argument. When would someone ever consider abortion unless the child is unwanted, and hence doesn't have permission?B Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16289914960341648823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-34572502736595781012011-10-25T21:32:43.343-05:002011-10-25T21:32:43.343-05:00I am afraid that Jack's problem is that he thi...I am afraid that Jack's problem is that he thinks he owns his wife's body and doesn't want another man using it to produce HIS child rather than Jack's. I deduce this from his frequent use of the house and burglar analogies, and from how he said the woman may use abortion to "take the possibility of a child from the rapist" (as if that's what the rapist wanted, to perpetuate his seed). <br />Damn it, Jack's wife's body is going to be used to perpetuate Jack's seed and no one else's, see? <br /><br />I haven't heard Jack say one thing about how his wife would feel about this, that he wants to protect her from having to bear the rapist's child and so on. No, it is all about him and his property rights. <br /><br />If we believe that there is human life from the moment of conception, that's it, period. No matter how tough it is, we can't kill that new life because it is painful for the woman, OR because her husband feels that his property rights in his wife have been violated. <br /><br />No matter how the child got there, God is its creator, and God has chosen for it to be conceived and to live. It is God's child that Jack wants to kill, when you come right down to it. Inasmuch as you have done it to the least of these my brethren, you have done it to Me. And who is the very least of the brethren? The unborn child, the newly conceived child. <br /><br />Think about that, Jack.<br />Susan Petersoneulogoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05307036781446427993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-32852743521063223082011-10-25T20:44:28.980-05:002011-10-25T20:44:28.980-05:00@Dan: this conversation/post assumes the host wou...@Dan: this conversation/post assumes the host would actually allow you to answer before calling you a fundamentalist, racist, uncompassionate Christian.<br /><br />@ Jack - I understand your arguments. They aren't really new. Many unsaved Jewish theologians take the view that abortion is not as serious a crime as a murder due to a terrible exegesis of Exodus 21:22-25. You've taken it a bit further by stating the child is not innocent due to original sin and therefore, a woman may "assign" her suffering to the unborn child. There's no Biblical authority for this view. You mentioned intruders but even the Mosaic law sets forth conditions under which an intruder's life may be taken and when it may not be. There's also not much evidence to indicate an abortion will reduce or prevent future suffering.<br /><br />Your pragmatic argument about what the populace would accept as a law is not relevant to the question of right and wrong. Most of us recognize that we pass laws that require parental notification and ultrasounds, not because we believe abortion should be allowed after such actions are taken, but because these laws are pragmatic steps towards ending abortion. Many of us might disagree on what moral laws should be enforced or can be enforced as a practical matter. But that doesn't make something right.<br /><br />Whether I can empathize or understand why a woman or husband would want an abortion in a rape case also doesn't change whether it is right or wrong. I could empathize with a father whose daughter was raped gunning down the rapist in an act of vengeance. I'd probably feel like giving him a medal. But his actions were still wrong, just as an abortion is wrong.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15285043747501470199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-20391001982342396562011-10-25T14:48:48.944-05:002011-10-25T14:48:48.944-05:00If these things have already been said I apologize...If these things have already been said I apologize for my redundancy (I have followed the thread but might have missed something). In the literal intruder situation, it is a potential life or death situation, with not a lot of time to react. A child of rape is not by nature a physical threat to the life of the mother because it is a child of rape. <br />Jack says the rape is still going on after the rapist is long gone. He doesn't make the distinction between action and effect. The rape is over, but the effects of the rape are ongoing. And the baby is not the same as his/her father (Ezekiel 18, etc.). Another thing about the intruder analogy. Jack seems to think or imply this gives ongoing freedom to kill, at least for 30 days. Forgetting the above distinction for one moment, the right to kill in an intruder situation lasts only as long as the possibility of physical threat (if not clear) cannot be ruled out. If before the owner can kill the intruder it becomes clear that the intruder is no threat, I think the right to kill is rescinded. The law did not give carte blanche to kill people for mere tresspassing.semijohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06188410200321163478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-11915292074396084732011-10-25T14:21:48.801-05:002011-10-25T14:21:48.801-05:00The question comes down to .. "What is it?&qu...The question comes down to .. "What is it?" If it's a human being, unique DNA, separate from the mother, and is a person, then no matter the circumstance it is not right to kill it. What if I let the child of rape be born, would it be okay for me to decide when he is 2 years old to kill him, because he "reminded" me too much of the rape? No? Why not? Because he is...... a HUMAN! Just like the baby. Location does not change human-ness.Emilyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10251875352250993610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-89434718358480840772011-10-25T14:10:15.411-05:002011-10-25T14:10:15.411-05:00@Robert: Your response has totally befuddled me......@Robert: Your response has totally befuddled me... maybe that doesn't take much. You said "When is it OK to murder somebody who poses no imminent threat to you or anybody else?"<br /><br />Is that a question that isn't covered somewhere in the ten commandments?<br /><br />Abortion doesn't "undo" rape—it amplifies it. Jack is wrong.Kylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07137758239305541715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-26295961430586682912011-10-25T10:31:01.896-05:002011-10-25T10:31:01.896-05:00Pastor Pants...
"Am I the only one who think...Pastor Pants...<br /><br />"Am I the only one who thinks that Jack might be playing Devil's advocate to show the absurdity of his position?"<br /><br />I think Jack is Dan, arguing both sides to demonstrate the rightness of the original argument.<br /><br />Could happen...<br /><br />I realize judging someone's eternal condition is not for us to do (generally). But sometimes its a difficult thing to avoid...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-72722131411648197202011-10-25T10:27:52.962-05:002011-10-25T10:27:52.962-05:00"Moreover Biblically, if the husband suspecte...<i>"Moreover Biblically, if the husband suspected the wife of being unfaithful (NOT RAPED just unfaithful) the husband had the right to compel the wife to drink water to make her...basically shrivel up and die (which would make it hard to bring any associated child to term)."</i><br /><br />I noticed Jack brought up a favorite of the "progressive (I <i>loathe</i> that term, don't you? They're liberals! The label "Progressive Christian" strikes me as nauseatingly pretentious, but they use the term of themselves.) Christian" crowd. I am pretty sure he is referring in this spiel to a test for adultery mentioned in some detail in the fifth chapter of Numbers. <br /><br /><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+5%3A11-31&version=NASB" rel="nofollow">Numbers 5:11-31 NASB</a><br /><br /><br />Firstly, according to a fair reading of the text in question, there is no abortion taking place here. Second, the woman herself did not shrivel up and die, her womb did, if she was found to have committed adultery. No one dies in this "test".<br /><br />Obviously, there is a supernatural element to what is happening in this ritual. The concoction she is told to ingest is derived from holy water and the dust on the floor of the tabernacle. <i>That's it!</i> If the woman consumes the drink and has had sex with someone other than her husband, the drink affects her by making her a "curse among her people." That is she becomes infertile/sterile. If she has not committed adultery the drink has absolutely no affect on her and she remains fertile and able to have children with her husband.<br /><br />Give the text a read for yourself and don't let the pro-abortion advocates toss Sacred Writ around as being in their favor. It truly is not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-41806274200379112092011-10-25T10:08:20.762-05:002011-10-25T10:08:20.762-05:00Seth,
One could also apply that same type of thin...Seth,<br /><br />One could also apply that same type of thinking to an "unplanned" pregnancy. It doesn't always have to stem from rape or incest. Which goes back to DJP's analogy with the man offering the money to sleep with the woman. All that is going on is bartering over what the value is. So, how valuable is life? When does it cease to be valuable? When is it OK to murder somebody who poses no imminent threat to you or anybody else?Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987985549747283669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-64060180797752297752011-10-25T09:54:25.622-05:002011-10-25T09:54:25.622-05:00Judgement belongs to God alone. I cringe when Jack...Judgement belongs to God alone. I cringe when Jack associates his pride with the teachings of his church... <br /><br />Here's another analogy... Fred and Angie have been married for 27 years, are active in their community and enjoy traveling the world. Fred was fortunate to retire early and through many blessings has accumulated an impressive nest egg. <br /><br />On a trip to the grocery store, Fred's car is t-boned by a drunk driver, and Fred survives ... as a quadriplegic with short-term memory loss. Fred can no longer dress, bath, eat or manage his bodily functions without assistance. <br /><br />Angie is overwhelmed with the realization that her husband needs so much attention, and she is heartbroken to know that their plans to visit Asia and Africa next Spring will never come to fruition.<br /><br />Angie never married Fred to be his live-in nurse, and she decides to euthanize Fred, enabling her to move on with her life, and still have much of their vaunted nest egg to cushion her life. And of course Fred will thank her for releasing him from his bodily imprisonment.<br /><br />Well Jack, let's hope this isn't your story.Kylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07137758239305541715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-87538083205920959492011-10-25T09:10:59.540-05:002011-10-25T09:10:59.540-05:00You mean except not stupid, cliched and wrong?
Ye...You mean except not stupid, cliched and wrong?<br /><br />Yeah, that'd be great!DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9313009.post-9160793381898487812011-10-25T09:08:57.459-05:002011-10-25T09:08:57.459-05:00someone needs to make a video of this and Wax'...someone needs to make a video of this and Wax's conversations with those cartoon videos like this one<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5MDqUAfPcI<br /><br />it'd be great for sharing :)rockstarkphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12347771663239133052noreply@blogger.com