Tuesday, October 21, 2008

Question for my church historian readers: Zwingli and Luther and Marburg

My dear wife has been doing some research preparing for our annual Reformation Celebration. She asks me to pass this question along to you, Dear Reader:
I have read that Martin Luther and Ulrich Zwingli agreed on 14 of 15 points in the Marburg Colloquy in 1529. However, I can find nowhere what these 15 points are. There has been some reference to the Articles of Schwabach that Luther drew up before hand. Were these the points that were discussed in Marburg? I find 17 or 18 points, not 15.

I don’t know if these 15 or 17 or more points were all discussed or if the meeting really centered around Luther’s and Zwingli’s disagreement over the Lord’s Supper.

I’d really like to know what the 15 points are. How did they come about, and were they discussed and agreed upon in Marburg — except for the meaning of the Lord’s Supper?
Link or documentation of any answer, please.

12 comments:

Stefan said...

Can't find anything. Lots of sources mention that there were 15 points, and that on all but one of them, Luther and Zwingli were in agreement. Online discussion revolves around the one point on which they did differ.

Searching for "marburg" in the Christian Classics Ethereal Library, one finds substantive background material by Philip Schaff in his History of the Christian Church, vol. 7, ch. 7, section 107, accessible here. The following section 108 says:

At last Luther yielded to the request of the Landgrave and the Swiss, retired to his closet, and drew up a common confession in the German language. It consists of fifteen articles expressing the evangelical doctrines on the Trinity, the person of Christ, his death and resurrection, original sin, justification by faith, the work of the Holy Spirit, and the sacraments.

The two parties agreed on fourteen articles, and even in the more important part of the fifteenth article which treats of the Lord’s Supper as follows: —


But no itemized list of what the fifteen points are.

Becky, a slave of Christ said...

I was hoping I might find something from one of the books we have been assigned for a Historical Theology course my husband and I are taking this year, but it had no more information than your wife already has.

I found a pdf online that is part of a lecture series. Luther: The Marburg Colloquy (Reformation Series: Lecture Five) With the knowledge the person behind this has, he might just have access to the 15 points, or it might be that they are mentioned in section B. (starts at the bottom of page 4) 2. (on page 5, which has several points that read like a blend of history and minutes of a meeting. I haven't looked at them deeper than a scan, but this looks like it would be very helpful.

What I am thinking, is that if this place can't help, I would be surprised if R.C. Sproul didn't have a copy of them or knows where to find them...if a copy exists. I don't know if you are buddies with him :) but they are very helpful at Ligonier Ministries.

http://www.graceopcmodesto.org/audio/2003/11/se110203pm.pdf

Ah, it is an Orthodox Presbyterian Church, no wonder.

Hope this helps.

threegirldad said...

Martin Luther's Basic Theological Writings

CR said...

My Evangelical Dictionary of Theology gives the following bibliography:

W.Koehler, Zingli und Luther: Ihr Streit uber das Abendmahl nach seinen politiischen und religiosen Beziehungen, 2 vols; H. Sasse, This is My Body; M.E. Lehmann, ed., Luther's Works, XXXVIII; G. Beto, "The Marburg Colloquy of 1529: A Textual Study," CTM :16:73-94.

I have no idea what CTM means.

Have you tried Theopedia? Also, do not underestimate public university libraries. I know when the Lord first was saving me from the CC, I asked myself, where I could I find something on Luther. Believe it or not, I found many of Luther's Works at Sac State. This was back before the Internet became popular. You can't check them out, they're references, but still...

You might also check with City Seminary, here locally.

Good providence.

DJP said...

3GD! 3GD! 3GD!

JOYce said...

Digging into these may help with background your wife is seeking.

http://books.google.com/books?q=%22schwabach+articles%22&btnG=Search+Books

http://books.google.com/books?q=%22marburg+articles%22&btnG=Search+Books

Becky, a slave of Christ said...

Agreed, 3GD...you are some kind of super Internet sleuth!

DJP said...

Kind of scary, isn't it, Becky?

I mean - what does he know about all of us?

Matt Gumm said...

I just want to go on record as saying that 3GD is an internet stud (in the late 80s/early 90s use of the word), and that he should henceforth be known as The Bloggy Answer Man.

threegirldad said...

Dan / Becky / Matt,

Careful -- I'm w - a - a - a - tching!

;-)

Stefan said...

I feel so unworthy.

JOYce said...

wow